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Old September 13, 2012, 07:10 PM   #1
tkglazie
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Why such great results with .45 even though FCD is swaging my bullets?

This is more of a general reloading question than an FCD question. No need to argue the pros and cons of using an FCD in this thread, there are plenty of active threads about that as is!

What I want to learn is why am I seeing great results when I load using my Lee 4 die set, even though I can clearly see and feel that my bullets are being swaged by the FCD?

Brief backstory- I am new to loading for .45ACP. I got an SR1911 maybe a month ago and loaded .451" 230gr FMJ first (over 5.0gr N320 at 1.255" 730fps, very accurate), then .452 200gr LSWC (over 4.8gr HP38 at 1.265", ragged hole at 25' accurate) and just today loaded my first .452 230gr LRN (over 4.8gr HP38 at 1.265", ragged hole at 25' accurate).

I use an FCD for all of my handgun loading (.380, 9mm, .38, .357) and always make very accurate ammo. Unless I am using bulged range brass, the FCD post-sizing ring rarely does much of anything in these calibers, as you would expect. With .45 bullets on the other hand, I am literally forcing every cartridge into and out of the FCD with some pretty serious force (enough to warrant loosening the bolt and extending the ram arm to max length on my LCT. When I loaded my first batch like that I figured I was making junk, but the results dont lie. The finished cartridges look and shoot spectacularly well. (note that I am NOT a great shooter, this is my first 1911 and I simply had no idea that a gun could shoot this accurately, this easily).

Shouldnt I be seeing reduced accuracy due to decreased neck tension with the FCD working the neck so hard across the full depth of the seated bullet?

I have cartridge and target pics available if needed.

Thanks in advance. I am always looking to learn more about this great hobby and any insight would be appreciated.
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Old September 13, 2012, 07:31 PM   #2
Gerry
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I would think decreased neck tension would be more of a safety issue than an accuracy issue. I'm a little surprised your FCD is touching your .452 bullets. It didn't with mine (mostly AMC cases). Swagging to an undesirable size may also cause leading of your barrel, keyholing, etc. What do your pulled bullets measure?
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Old September 13, 2012, 07:39 PM   #3
SL1
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It is hard to tell what all is happening in your gun from here.

If the bullet is actually doing the headspacing on the rifling, instead of the case mouth headspscing on the front of the chamber, then bullet tension is not the determining factor in the ignition/combustion of the powder. If the bullet is still larger than the groove diameter, then you can be getting good accuracy without leading. Or, maybe other things are happening that I don't know about.

One thing to be carful with, though, is that reduced case tension on the bullet might allow the bullets to be set-back into the case when they hit the feed ramp in an auto-feed cycle. In high-pressure cartridges like the 9mm and 40 S&W, that can be dangerous. In the .45 ACP at target load levels, maybe not so dangerous. But, probably still worth avoiding to be sure you (and those near you) are safe.

Are you checking case tension on your loaded rounds, or just making assumptions?

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Old September 13, 2012, 07:45 PM   #4
BDS-THR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkglazie
What I want to learn is why am I seeing great results when I load using my Lee 4 die set, even though I can clearly see and feel that my bullets are being swaged by the FCD?

.452 200gr LSWC (over 4.8gr HP38 at 1.265", ragged hole at 25' accurate) and just today loaded my first .452 230gr LRN (over 4.8gr HP38 at 1.265", ragged hole at 25' accurate).
That's because you are using close to known accurate load (5.0 gr W231/HP-38 with 200 LSWC/230 LRN).

Ragged hole at 25 feet? At 7-10 yards, 5.0 gr W231/HP-38 with Missouri 200 gr SWC (Bullseye #1/IDP #1) will produce dime sized holes from my Sig 1911 TacPac and quarter sized holes at 15 yards.

Try leaving the FCD out and see if your shot groups decrease.

This is Dardas Cast Bullet's comments on FCD - https://www.dardascastbullets.com/mm...re_Code=dardas
Quote:
Please do not use factory crimp dies for cast bullet reloading. Cast bullets MUST remain in their pristine state in order to shoot accurately. Factory Crimp Dies will decrease the cast bullet's sized diameter and thus will cause many unwanted issues.
Comments from Precision Bullets about FCD - http://www.precisionbullets.com/
Quote:
Do not use...Lee Factory Taper Crimp Dies.

The Lee Factory Taper Crimp Die will undersize the bullets causing accuracy and fouling problems.
Before you pull the trigger on the flame gun, I am a Lee Precision fan and support the use of FCD with "jacketed" diameter bullets they were intended for.

Last edited by BDS-THR; September 13, 2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:04 PM   #5
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Please do not use factory crimp dies for cast bullet reloading. Cast bullets MUST remain in their pristine state in order to shoot accurately. Factory Crimp Dies will decrease the cast bullet's sized diameter and thus will cause many unwanted issues.
He might be a great bullet caster but he is wrong. Not all FCD's swage down a 452 bullet. I agree if the FCD is swaging a lead bullet then don't use it but there are a lot of us that don't have that problem.
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:13 PM   #6
tkglazie
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Good question Gerry- I should have mentioned that.

I am seeing about .001 under right at the case mouth, tapering to .0005 or even maybe back to 0 right at the base of the bullet. You can see the line where the case is really digging in on the bottom bullet (the middle bullet is an unseated one). The marker line on the finished cartridge shows where the post-sizing ring is rubbing the case (it does not touch the case near the head, that bit of marker was rubbed off when I handled the cartridge)


maybe the reason it works is the exposed portion of the bullet, plus the very base of the bullet are still at original diameter? just a thought.

[IMG][/IMG]

Quote:
Are you checking case tension on your loaded rounds, or just making assumptions?
My case neck prior to bullet seating is .449"

Quote:
That's because you are using close to known accurate load (5.0 gr W231/HP-38 with 200 LSWC/230 LRN).
with 5.1gr HP38 I was lucky to get 2" groups at 25', yet 4.8 was a big hole with 8 shots in it (I staggered the 2 loads 3-3-2, not 8 and 8)

Last edited by tkglazie; September 13, 2012 at 08:20 PM.
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:18 PM   #7
tkglazie
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I agree if the FCD is swaging a lead bullet then don't use it
Is there some "acceptable" amount of swaging? (in my case, 1/2-1 tenth)

I dont necessarily like the idea of working brass like I am when I make a cartridge, but I get my brass for free, and rarely if ever make ragged holes with any gun. I hate to give up on a load that works, even if it is working my elbow to make it

I am definitely going to take your advice though BDS-THR, and try some without the FCD just for my own knowledge. I will make a batch with a 2 step process, seating a bunch then backing out the seating plug and crimping with the seating die (I much prefer seating and crimping in 2 steps)
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:20 PM   #8
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"Shouldnt I be seeing reduced accuracy due to decreased neck tension with the FCD working the neck so hard across the full depth of the seated bullet?"

Yes...IF it were true. Fact is, most of the 'harm' done by the FCD's post seating ring is BS, and you have proven it without trying to.
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:30 PM   #9
tkglazie
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Yes...IF it were true. Fact is, most of the 'harm' done by the FCD's post seating ring is BS, and you have proven it without trying to.
I believe I understand your point. And while I was not "trying" to, the FCD has served me well enough with my .380/9mm/.38/.357 loads that even though it felt like it was really working the cartridge I trusted the tool and road it out with 3 different bullet types. Based on the appearance of the pulled bullet it might well be a gray area but the results are solid for a very average shooter.

The highest shot was the first shot, and the lowest shot was a yanked trigger flyer. 8 shots total (cardboard target on top of several layers of targets).

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:49 PM   #10
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Jeez, I dunno...this reminds me of a time a few years back I shot a group about exactly like that from my range in lower Michigan to my friend's range south of Indianapolis. He said, "low left, that's pathetic. Stop using the FCD and I bet it comes right back in - friggen idiot"

The wind was bad that day around Fort Wayne, but I had cleaned the Beretta a few months prior, so it's probably a wash.
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:50 PM   #11
tkglazie
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Quote:
Jeez, I dunno...this reminds me of a time a few years back I shot a group about exactly like that from my range in lower Michigan to my friend's range south of Indianapolis. He said, "low left, that's pathetic. Stop using the FCD and I bet it comes right back in - friggen idiot"

The wind was bad that day around Fort Wayne, but I had cleaned the Beretta a few months prior, so it's probably a wash.
ha!
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:57 PM   #12
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tkglazie, most cast bullet reloaders will shout "bullet-to-barrel fit is king!" and suggest bullet diameter .001"+ larger than the groove diameter of the barrel. So, if you are feeling the carbide sizer ring of the FCD post-sizing, your bullet's diameter maybe getting reduced.

I do not use FCD of my Lee 4-die sets and my .452" sized 45ACP loads will feed/chamber reliably in tight chambered Sig 1911 barrel. It does require more consistent reloading practice on my part but certainly doable.

if you want to check the neck tension of your FCD loads, measure the OAL before and after feeding/chambering your finished rounds from the magazine by manually releasing the slide. If you see a reduction in OAL, your neck tension is in question.
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Old September 13, 2012, 09:02 PM   #13
tkglazie
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Thanks BDS, will do. I have made this check with my 9mm and .380, but not the SR1911. Not sure why not. Knowing you should do something is not the same as actually doing it until it becomes a habit, I guess. I like good habits when it comes to reloading and gun safety in general.
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Old September 13, 2012, 09:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Is there some "acceptable" amount of swaging? (in my case, 1/2-1 tenth)
This is just me but if I had a round where I could feel the post sizing ring do something the I would try to spin the bullet in the case and also push it quite firm against the bench to see if the bullet moves. You could be barely touching and not really affecting the bullet. If it was doing that to 1 in 1,000 it wouldn't be a big deal, if it was doing it to most of what I was loading then I would stop using it.
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Old September 13, 2012, 09:27 PM   #15
tkglazie
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Quote:
This is just me but if I had a round where I could feel the post sizing ring do something the I would try to spin the bullet in the case and also push it quite firm against the bench to see if the bullet moves. You could be barely touching and not really affecting the bullet. If it was doing that to 1 in 1,000 it wouldn't be a big deal, if it was doing it to most of what I was loading then I would stop using it.
Agreed crustyfn. Thats what made me start this thread. I went ahead and kept making the rounds in this instance, even though each one swaged, tested the rounds and got as good a result as anything I have ever made or shot.

I know I have learned something by doing this, I just dont know what it is yet! So far it looks like wncchester is on to something.
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Old September 13, 2012, 09:35 PM   #16
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The carbide rings in Lee's FCDs are not all identical in diameter (for a particular cartriddge). I don't know what their tolerances are supposed to be, but I was told by Lee that some are definitely tighter than others when I had the problem with a .44 Magnum die and found that it would even swage JACKETED FACTORY AMMO. Lee's rep agreed that one was too tight.

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Old September 13, 2012, 09:57 PM   #17
tkglazie
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Quote:
The carbide rings in Lee's FCDs are not all identical in diameter (for a particular cartriddge). I don't know what their tolerances are supposed to be, but I was told by Lee that some are definitely tighter than others when I had the problem with a .44 Magnum die and found that it would even swage JACKETED FACTORY AMMO. Lee's rep agreed that one was too tight.

SL1
good point- I forgot to mention this. Mine ID's at .4715" I am seeing cartridge ODs of .4725", which makes sense, about .001" of bounceback. I have no idea if that is a tight FCD or a loose FCD because I have nothing to compare it to. If anyone else has a .45 FCD and an inside and outside mic I would be curious to know their FCD ID and cartridge OD (tough to compare just the ID given the variance between two people when using a micrometer)
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Old September 13, 2012, 10:05 PM   #18
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Thats a great looking group. I also use fcd and i dont load 45 but i have had one push .38s and .357s down into the case after theyd been seated. Lee sent me another one did the same thing. Problem was solved by ordering/using a sizer for my bullets. One member here was kind enough to suggest keeping my old crimp ring and polishing it out about a thousandths for larger bullets so i did that too. Both rings are marked and ones kept in the die box now.
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Old September 13, 2012, 10:16 PM   #19
tkglazie
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One member here was kind enough to suggest keeping my old crimp ring and polishing it out about a thousandths for larger bullets so i did that too. Both rings are marked and ones kept in the die box now.
Thanks Crank. Believe me, its all the gun. I like your idea (if I am understanding properly). I can start out by trying BDS's idea of shooting a batch of the same load without the FCD to see if my groups hold, and if they do, I can get another FCD, polish it out .001" and use it for my lead and keep the original for FMJ. Or are you saying you size all of your bullets down beforehand in another step as well? (forgive my ignorance regarding terminology or process)

(note- I am using Fed and PMC brass, each with .010" wall thickness)

Last edited by tkglazie; September 13, 2012 at 11:04 PM.
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Old September 14, 2012, 04:45 PM   #20
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I am seeing about .001 under right at the case mouth, tapering to .0005 or even maybe back to 0 right at the base of the bullet.
Since the base is ok and you describe a tapered condition, I'd try backing it off half a turn. Pull and measure again. If you see improvement, back it off more. It may not be the resizing ring itself that's causing you grief.
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Old September 14, 2012, 05:52 PM   #21
tkglazie
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Thanks Gerry, I was wondering about that (not quite as clearly as you communicated it though). l give it a whirl this weekend.

I tried a few mags of the 230gr LRN today at 25 yards (seated, over my range bag) and was able to keep 6 of 8 shots in a 3" group which is obscenely good for my skills. I have a few boxes made up using the existing configuration now and will make some with a lesser FCD crimp and some with no FCD at all as described previously and see if there is a difference.

Thanks again for all the great feedback. I find that I am learning more about the nuances of reloading now that I own one of the easiest guns to shoot and load for (1911). The gun, and the forgiving cartridge, takes some the "user error" out of the equation and lets you focus on what is going on in the process.
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Old September 16, 2012, 03:42 PM   #22
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good results

From the picture it appears you are shooting near perfect groups. Why are we talking about changing anything?
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Old September 16, 2012, 05:44 PM   #23
tkglazie
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Why are we talking about changing anything?
not looking to change, just understand. It just seems "odd" to be forcing the cartridges into and out of the FCD so hard and yet seeing such good results.

edit-

I havent had a chance to make up new test rounds as described above, but I did get a chance to chrono the 230gr LRN loads in question. I saw an avg velocity for 780fps, with a few around 800 and a few around 760. Nothing particularly match grade consistency-wise, but certainly within the 5% "sweetspot" for factory-quality ammo. Just thought I would add that info.

Last edited by tkglazie; September 16, 2012 at 07:12 PM.
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Old September 16, 2012, 09:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
not looking to change, just understand. It just seems "odd" to be forcing the cartridges into and out of the FCD so hard and yet seeing such good results.
The big ammo manufactures use a finishing die that does the same thing as the post sizing ring in the FCD. It would be interesting to know how many of their rounds get post sized.
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Old September 16, 2012, 09:40 PM   #25
tkglazie
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that it would, crusty. My guess is since they have total control of the components they use, while most of use range brass of varying wall thickness and bullets of varying diameters it would be somewhat less, but not entirely eliminated, but thats just a guess.

Last edited by tkglazie; September 16, 2012 at 10:19 PM.
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