Reduced loads in .30-06

[shootingtime]

I'm A new shooter and reloader, I found an A5744 powder with a 110g .308 for my 30-06 in the speer manual #14. Its not saying what primer to use, I'm noticing that few recipes say what primers to use??? What i'm looking for is a load to take to the range to shoot with my 12 yr old son, and dont want to wear his (my) shoulder out. Also I found a recipe saying to use H4350with the same bullet and it key holed on me and I had no control over it. I am questioning the recipe. where can I find "tried and tru". thanks Chuck.

[mrawesome22]

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20R...le%20Loads.pdf

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf

sudo apt-get update

[tom234]

+1 H4895. All .30-06 loads use standard LR primers.

[jimkim]

If you want something with really low recoil, try Ed Harris' "the load" 13.0gr Red Dot. You can also substitute PROMO weight for weight for Red Dot.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

[Brian Pfleuger]

If you want REALLY reduced loads, try IMR Trail Boss.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20B...oads%20R&P.pdf

I've used it in 204Ruger, 22-250, 243, 7mm-08 and 270WSM. Good stuff. Makes the 204 into 22mag energy that sounds like a cap gun. Great fun.

[Unclenick]

And I'll add that for any reduced load and large rifle primer, magnum or regular, will work.

[joneb]

I use Blue Dot in a bolt action 308 Win. that has a 22" 1:12 twist barrel, with a Nosler 125gr BT and Federal 210 primer and 16gr of BD is about a 50% case fill.
I have shot hundreds of these with no issues, the accuracy is excellent at 200yds it hold a 5 rnds under a 1.5" major elevation and some windage adjustments are need. I keep track of changes so finding zero for a standard load is not that difficult.
Reduced loads are fun to shoot, but the trajectory is far from flat.

[Slamfire]

I use Blue Dot in a bolt action 308 Win. that has a 22" 1:12 twist barrel, with a Nosler 125gr BT and Federal 210 primer and 16gr of BD is about a 50% case fill.

Seafire seems to be the starting point for Blue Dot loads in 223 and it appears it is spreading to other calibers.

I called Alliant and asked their opinion. They don't publish Blue Dot in 223 loads because small changes in components, chambers, result in big spikes in pressure. The powder is too sensitive in these applications.

I looked at my old Hercules manuals, no Blue Dot loads in 308/30-06, and I am of the opinion it is for the same reason.

On this site there is a picture of a 257 Weatherby that was blown using reduced charges of Blue Dot. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341348 The poster of which thought it was due to his double charging reduced loads of Blue Dot, which would be reasonable culprit if the powder was appropriate to the application. But given the known issues around Blue Dot's pressure curve, it is more likely that the load was not double charged but blew because of Blue Dot's sensitivity to components and conditions.

I would not hand my kid a rifle stuffed with one of these time bombs. Just look at the pictures and decide for yourself.

[joneb]

On this site there is a picture of a 257 Weatherby that was blown using reduced charges of Blue Dot.

It would have been useful if ryalred had shared the load, ryalred seemed to think this was caused by a double charge if not this was another case of detonation.

[zxcvbob]

The only use I've found for Blue Dot is in .45 Colt "Ruger" loads. And it's good enough for that I'm almost tempted to buy another pound of it. It should be good in .223 with light bullets, but I don't trust the stuff. Had too much trouble with it in .357 Mag. I really don't trust in it big rifle cases.

To the original question, 12 to 14 grains of Red Dot or Promo with Berry's plated .30-30 bullets, and whatever LR or LRM primer you have handy. It's a very accurate load, but it shoots low.

[ATPBULLETS]

The H4895 is some excellent load info... very mild for the few i loaded and fairly accurate....if you read their we site that was lin ked above...there is a statement that allows for up to 10% less that the loads mentioned....
and like said if really want a lite load ... try trailboss....i did and its super lite...poi is changed with it....the 4895(h) is same poi for a little ways out.

[Bart B.]

A caution regarding fired cases that's been loaded with "reduced" loads.

Rimless bottleneck cases have their shoulders set back from firing pin impact. If the powder and bullet combination's not enough to make peak pressures high enough, the case won't expand enough behind the shoulder to stretch it and push the primer (that got pushed out when the pressure got up a ways) back in flush with the case head.

In my own tests with .308 Win., .270 Win. 7x57 Mauser, .30-06 and 8x57 Mauser rounds, using regular powders in loads reduced more than about 10% below normal maximum, primers remained pushed out several thousandths. And fired case headspace was reduced. Neck only and partial neck sizing won't correct that. Sometimes even full length sizing won't move the case shoulder back forward enough.

Firing cases with insufficient headspace leads to brass thinning in front of the extractor groove. That's incipient head separation, the first of many steps that eventually causes head separation.

Choose your reduced loads carefully. And check fired case headspace (distance between case head and shoulder reference point) after using reduced loads to see if they're more than 5/1000ths less than SAAMI minimum. Treat them correctly if they're too short and can't be moved forward enough by full length sizing them.

[Unclenick]

In addition to more erratic ignition and a few other issues, that's another argument for shifting to faster powders for reduced loads rather than just going to a reduced charge of a slower one. If you aren't getting the primer reseated, the peak pressure is too low, for sure.

[math teacher]

You mentioned keyholing. Before I started handloading years ago, a friend loaded my 300 Savage with a mild load and the bullets went through the targets sideways. Shortly thereafter I began loading and uped the velocity and the problem disappeared. The bullets simply would not stablize at the lower velocity. You may need to sellect a different bullet for reduced loads.

[crowbeaner]

If you found a load in the Speer manual, dollar to a doughnut it was a CCI primer! Speer and CCi are Blount conglomerate sister companies, and I doubt they use RP,WW, or FC primers without saying so (although FC is now Blount also).

[black mamba]

Accurate's own load data shows 30.2 gr start and 33.5 gr max for a 152 gr lead RN and 5744 powder. With the 180 gr lead RN it's 28.8 start and 32.0 max. Velocities are between 2150 and 2450 fps. If you substitute jacketed bullets, stay near the starting charges.

These loads do NOT require fillers of any kind, as 5744 is NOT position sensitive.

[shootingtime]

Thanks for all the info!!! I will do diligences in the loading. I'm looking at 26.0g of A5744 with a 110g .308 fed210 with a twice shot Remington case. I have a few more of these bullets to use about 94. I'll get these loaded and let you all know how they shot. In the mean time I will be reading the info posted and the websites suggested.

[Salmoneye]

It would have been useful if ryalred had shared the load, ryalred seemed to think this was caused by a double charge if not this was another case of detonation.

No factory or test lab I am aware of has ever been able to reproduce or confirm the theory of 'detonation'...

Double charging just seems to be too simple and mundane an explanation for some people...

[Slamfire]

Detonation is usually associated with reduced loads of slow burning powders. P.O Ackley has a section in his reloading handbooks. I recall people were using reduced loads of surplus 4831 and blowing their actions.

I believe in the possibility of detonation and have read about computer models that show the pressure influences of burning particles ahead of the pressure wave.

Whether anyone believes it is not my concern, I don't want to be eliminated from the gene pool before my time, but for those with a death wish, have at it. I believe that what you want is a smooth pressure curve not an erratic pressure curve, as interactions between pressure waves are not predictable.

I also believe that pressure curves are not all the same. Varmint shooters have told me of how clean burning Blue Dot and how little heat they are getting in their 223's. The only way they are getting clean burning is with high pressures and high temperatures.

[kraigwy]

light loads in such rounds as the '06 aren't consistent for the simple reason the little bitty powder charge lays in the case different. Sometimes the powder might lay under the bullet, some times it might lay on the primer, some times it might be scattered all over the case.

That is why I like Trailboss for large capacity cases. It should fill the case to about 75% of capacity and makes a nice smooth, light recoiling, ACCURATE round.

[dardascastbullets]

If you haven't already, I would highly suggest that you let your son shoot a .22 and/or and air rifle to experience pleasure. Find a local junior rifle club that participates in either air rifle and/or smallbore shooting. He will really appreciate attending a junior club - not only for the shooting but for the comradery and the self satisfaction of accomplishment. The NRA and USA Shooting both have websites that have clubs listed that you can contact. Believe me, it is a wise investment that you and your son will be extremely proud to have!

[Unclenick]

Agree with Trail Boss as a way to get clear of all the other issues.

The Finnish Gunwriter's site has a description of a 3.1 grain load of N320 in a .308 bursting the rifle. N320 is a fast (between Unique and Bullseye) pistol powder, not a slow rifle powder. It's also a load so small (the user was interested in sub-sonic loads) that double, triple, quadruple, quintuple, sextuple and even septuple overcharging would just get it up to normal .308 pressure. So the damage couldn't be explained by simple double-charging.

I know these high pressure events are rare and unusual. The statement that no lab has ever been able to duplicate them has been repeated for decades but is apparently now obsolete. Norma has some test data showing excessive pressures from low loads of some rifle powders (they don't seem to be on their web site, so I can't link to them). I also understand from Rocky Raab that the more modern and faster responding Piezo transducer measuring systems that graphically display the whole pressure curve in microsecond detail have revealed a lot of previously invisible and unsuspected events. He says that's how the Blue Dot warning against its use for 125 grain bullets in .357 magnum as well as for all .41 Magnum loads came about. He also mentioned other facilities having achieved reproduction of high pressure events in the lab. If I can get more details to post, I will.

Meanwhile, don't load any slow powders below about 2/3 case fill under the bullet and don't let even fast pistol powders go below about 20% case fill, and it appears to me you'll avoid all the circumstances in which these events have been reported.

[joneb]

I apologize for suggesting a potentially dangerous load.
I had a LB of Blue Dot that I no longer cared to use in my handguns(although I did find favor with it for 357 Mag using 180gr jacketed bullets), so about 4 1/2 years ago I developed a reduced 308 Win. load as in post #7, I have shot hundreds of these without incident. This load has always been consistent providing accuracy under MOA out to 200yds.
I am not sure if I've just been lucky or I found a sweet spot, I have about a haft LB left of BD and will likely burn it in my 308 this load has worked well on rock chucks and fire forming cases.
I have tried Unique and AA5744 for this purpose but neither provided the accuracy, perhaps when the BD is gone and if I still have a gun to shoot I will try IMR's 4759.

[Unclenick]

Blue dot's fast enough that I suspect the 20% pistol volume limit applies to it and you're well over that.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I will concur the recomendation of Trail Boss. For reduced rifle loads it works very well. I use it in my 7.62x54 loads. I used it to develop a round that Mrs M&P could shoot a lot without agrivating an old neck and back injury. They shoot very well out of both of my 91-30's, as well as her's.

Besides it is cheap. Less than $20 for a 9oz can. (That will load every bit as many cases as a pound of rifle powder.