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Old December 21, 2000, 12:27 PM   #1
stuckatwork
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Hi,

I am in the process of building a .308 rifle from a large ring Mauser action. I need to modify/replace the bolt handle for clearance to mount a scope. Like everyone else in this world, time is getting tight so off to a gunsmith to have it bent. The smith, a competent craftsman and reasonable fellow informed me that he will not bend bolt handles, only replace them. His price a fair, so he got the job. Curiosity got the better of me so I called some other gunsmiths in town. They all said that they only replace the bolt handles. None of them would say why.

What is the problem with bending a bolt handle? I have done it in the past and don't think it is all that hard. Yes, you need about $100 worth of heat sinks, jigs and heat paste. Stuff that one would think a riflesmith would have. Any thoughts?

thanks,

stuckatwork, writing this while stuck at work.

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Old December 21, 2000, 01:37 PM   #2
BBBBill
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Hmmm.....maybe they DON'T have the tools. I've been surprised by what some smiths don't have. Also you tend to stick with what you know. If they were taught/started w/ replacing handles..... Of course, replacing them gives you more length to work with. Bent handles tend to be short. Heat might be an issue too. Some believe that bending requires that heat be applied longer than welding.
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Old December 21, 2000, 10:45 PM   #3
James K
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I never did anything but bend bolt handles. As noted, it doesn't take long with the right equipment and it is a far better job than welding on a replacement. (Yes, Virginia, welded on handles do sometimes come off, though I am sure the folks here will claim that has never happened with ones they did.)

Takes about 5 minutes to bend the bolt down and get the right bend up and back. Of course, the bolt handle then has to be ground to shape and polished, but some of that has to be done with a welded on handle as well.

Jim
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Old December 23, 2000, 09:05 AM   #4
George Stringer
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Like Jim I prefer to bend or forge the handle rather than weld on new ones but I do both. I also sometimes use a combination of the two. This is done by cutting the root just like you would if you were replacing the handle but stopping about 1/8" from completely cutting through at the bottom. Then the handle is bent to the correct angle and the "notch" is filled with weld. The advantage is that the result is a longer handle than you have when you just forge it and you retain some of the strength of the original handle root that you lose when you weld it. Over the years I have had handles that have been welded on break off but I have never had one of the combo handles break. George
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Old December 24, 2000, 04:04 PM   #5
Shadow Walker
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Correct! Some gunsmiths do not know how to bend a bolt handle for a scope.

Few years ago I took a 98 Mauser rifle to a Gunsmith to have the bolt bend for a scope. Should have left when I had to explain what I was talking about.

Came back a couple of weeks later. Bolt was bend for sure, but not to clear a scope. Looked like he had heated the handle and then bent it with a hammer. No polishing, no removing hammer marks, just let the bolt cool off and put it back in rifle.

This guy had been a "gunsmith" for over thirty years, and was still "lost" when it came to working on converting military rifles.

It was $30.00 well wasted by me! Back again to doing my own gun work.

Heck! If third world un-educated people can build guns from scratch, then we should be able to do our own gun repair, converting, and yes, even building. Yes, and gunsmiths like him should be unemployed.
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Old December 24, 2000, 08:29 PM   #6
Gewehr98
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Ok, along those lines, in my efforts to make a "shooter" 1903A4, I purchased a faux 1903A4 bolt that has been bent too far, such that the handle almost goes completely vertical when the bolt is closed in battery. That means that the bolt handle's knob will hit the stock before the bolt goes completely into lockup. Jim, George, can you folks direct me to a smith who can put some heat or weld on this thing to get it back to the proper angle? This is about the only thing keeping me from finishing this restoration, I even found the proper scope, base, and rings.
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Old December 24, 2000, 11:04 PM   #7
James K
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I have no doubt George can do what you want, and get the angle right as well.

I used to advise going to a "competent gunsmith." I am sure there are many, but judging from what I read here and on other sites, I am beginning to wonder if really competent smiths are not getting thin on the ground. And not just military rifles, either. I have heard horror stories of "gunsmiths" screwing up in other ways. One genius drilled and tapped a rifle for scope mounts; the front hole went into the chamber, the others went into the bolt, which he didn't remove! He got mad when the customer complained. Another put a side mount on a Model 71 Winchester and ended up with about 15 holes, as he kept moving the base around when he couldn't get it lined up. Still another "crowned" a barrel by hand with a case neck reamer instead of a crowning tool or, better, a crowning lathe tool; when the customer said the rifle would not shoot, the smith tried to bend the barrel.

Makes one want to cry.

Jim
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Old December 25, 2000, 12:22 AM   #8
BBBBill
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Sigh..... That is a none to rare story even in the old days. Fellow named Ed Sabo used to build some nice varmint rifles & bullseye pistols. Always talking about the idiot gunsmiths that wrecked perfectly good guns. He died way too soon. It's why I stared in this game. Had to protect my stuff from fools. At least if I screwed it up, I didn't have to pay someone for it. No one to blame but me. I bought a bunch of broke, bent, busted stuff to practice on. Even got some fixed. Cheep education.
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Old December 25, 2000, 03:53 PM   #9
Herodotus
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My understanding is that there are severe problems in altering bolts on Mausers: potential problems in bending the bot and potential problems in welding a new one on the bolt.
First of all, Paul Mauser himself avoided the whole problem by providng your original rifle with an INTEGRAL bolt body and bolt handle. He just machined the whole unit out of one solid peice of uniform steel. When you really take a look at your integral bolt body and bolt handle, you will realize what an amazing thing this really was. Paul Mauser literally machined away the overwhelming percentage of steel in that original steel billet in a very complicated way so that you got the very best there could ever possibly be on your Mauser rifle. There is no doubt that this was the very best solution to the problem and it makes you realize how expensive these old Mausers really were to produce in the first place.
It is kind of a shame to have to mess up this wonderful peice of machine work, but old Paul just did not make these things compatible with modern scopes, hence our modern dilema with his bolt handles.
The biggest problem with forging the bolt handle anew is that if the bolt is not heat sunk properly or if properly sunk the gunsmith stll takes too long in performing the operation, the bolt will loose its proper heat treatment and this will affect the cocking cams on the rear of the bolt. You will then get a action that cocks too hard and too sticky too be worthy of true Mauser workmanship.
My local gunsmith has said that no one would ever want their bolt forged if they could actually see all the fire and banging that actually has to be employed to bend the bolts on these rifles and I don't doubt him. If the craftsmanship of the gunsmith is not very, very good, I am sure that an awful mess can be produced.
I have also seen Mauser bolts reforged that left the very front surface of the bolt stem unbeveled and this interfered with the cocking action also, making the bolt lift unbeleivably hard. If you look at the front face of a military Mauser bolt handle near the bolt body, you will see a little bevel there and it turns out that this little bevel is important.
Finally, when you get the original bolt bent like you want it to be, it turns out to be a little short and comes up a little too close to the scope to really be ideal, especially if you are used to modern bolt handles that were intended from the beginning to be used with a scope sight, like those on the Winchester Model 70.
The advantage of forging the existing bolt handle is that you still have an integral bolt handle that will never fail, like old Paul Mauser intended in the first place.
The disadvantage of welding on a new handle is that the bolt is no longer integral and these non integral bolts can and do break off. This can be due to poor workmanship or because of unrealized incompatiblities between the old bolt metal and the new bolt metal that affect the strength of the weld.
Finally, a really incompetant welder can mess up the heat treatment and make a general mess of things by this method also, although it may be less likely.
The advantage of the new welded bolt handle actually lies, I think, in the ability to get a new bolt handle that is longer, more swept back and which can give greater clearance for your hand and the scope. It should work well if your gunsmith is good and you are lucky with the metalurgical gamble.
So from my perspective, I would do the following:
1. If you don't need to mess with a Mauser bolt, don't.
2. If you have a staight bolt and want it bent, say for an iron sighted sporter, then forging will preserve the integral nature of the bolt and handle.
3. If making a truely first class sporter, I would consider welding if I wanted a bolt handle that was absolutely best suited for a scoped rifle.
4. I would never trust any of this bolt work to a gunsmith that did not have a well known and highly recommended reputation for this kind of custom bolt action work. There is just too much that can go seriously wrong in this kind of work.
5. As someone else suggested, really competent all around gunsmiths are (perhaps always were) kind of thin on the ground.
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Old December 25, 2000, 07:17 PM   #10
James K
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Hi, Herodotus,

I agree with much of what you say. Stuckatwork did mention heat sinks, I merely said proper tools, which would include them. I am not sure about the "fire and banging". Welding on a bolt handle involves some fire also, and can also ruin the heat treatment of the bolt if done improperly. I don't know why a properly forged bolt handle would not be able to have as much scope clearance as a welded on handle, but a welded on handle can be any length desired and can have a fancier knob at little cost, because most new bolt handles are cast.

I agree about the genius of Mauser, but Mauser bolts were not machined from steel blocks, but from forgings. After the flashing was trimmed, the forging would be in the rough shape of the bolt and little machining was required. There is a lot of misunderstanding about forgings; good forgings can be almost as close to the finished product as castings.

Jim

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Old December 25, 2000, 10:07 PM   #11
Joe Portale
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Hello again,

Herodotus, I agree with what you are saying about the Mauser being a piece of engineering wonder. I have restored about five different flavors of Mauser from surplus to near perfect condition over the past year and a half. One could say that I have the bug. This will be my third conversion of a surplus military Mauser to a sporting gun. In the long run, one may be able to buy a barreled Remington action cheaper than it costs to customize, but ya' know what? I can hold up my Mausers and say "I did this!"

The only reason that I took the bolt to a smith is that my buddy borrowed my bending blocks, then up and moved. I know I'll get the stuff back when he gets around to it. Bending the bolt is not that big of a deal. The bolt body on the VZ Mauser action is the same one that would be found on the civilian hunting rifle version of this rifle. They merely bent them at the factory. Also, Jim Keneen is right, the bolt body assemblies were forged and then turned to specs.

Bending the bolt will not mess up the strength of the bolt handle. I never tried the trick that George mentioned, but it is sound and I may try it some day. WHen done properly bending a bolt handle will not damage the bolt body in any way.

Good discussion folks

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Old December 30, 2000, 09:29 AM   #12
Gewehr98
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George, how do I contact you, through your website, or on this forum, or e-mail? This is one of my last remaining projects before I have to call it quits, due to an upcoming military move.
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Old December 30, 2000, 05:26 PM   #13
George Stringer
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Gewher98, you can just e-mail me if you like. George
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