After the shooting Poll

1911rocks · January 22, 2010, 07:29 AM

Building on Firepower's "Have you ever been shot at" Poll.

First, if you've been involved in a Self Defense shooting NOT AN ACT OF WAR (edited 1/24/09 thank you JohnKSA) or as an LEO what was the total cost to you? Missed work, legal fees, Doctor Bills, hell, I'll even let you factor in stress. Please factor in inflation if this happened in the past and let us know what year this occurred
Please be discreet and let's not let this evolved into a whizzing contest

Thank you very much for your time and contribution!!

James K · January 22, 2010, 07:16 PM

I put down $5 grand plus, but every case is different. Remember, self defense is not a "right", it is an affirmative defense to a charge of murder or manslaughter. If the shooting is in the shooter's home, and there is no other involvement (e.g., a drug deal gone bad), the police will probably not make an arrest, and there will be no charges; a civil suit is still a possibility.

But, in a shooting outside the home, the shooter will almost always be arrested, so lost work, etc. can be a factor. If the prosecutor chooses not to press charges, that is the end of it from a criminal law point of view.

But if charges are pressed, and bail is required, a bail bondsman will charge ten percent, non-refundable, of the bond amount. Bond may not be allowed if the charge is murder, but even if allowed may run to, say, a half million. That means someone has to come up with $50,000, in cash or collateral that they won't get back.

Attorney's fees can run $500+ per hour, depending on the lawyer and the case. And on, and on.

Then, if the criminal charges are dropped or the outcome of a criminal trial is successful for the defendant, the shooting victim or his survivors may file a civil wrongful death/injury suit. Charges for defending that suit will pile up also.

In other words, the idea that you can just shoot someone, claim self-defense and walk away whistling is something that happens in movies, not in real life. The fact is that, web site ninja nonsense notwithstanding, shooting or killing someone, even in a clear cut case of self defense, is NOT taken lightly in modern society.

NOTE: Before responding with silly nonsense about how YOU can shoot half the county, claim self defense, and be awarded a medal by the governor, THINK! You will NOT be the exception, and if something does happen, the more you rant and bluster about gun rights, and how want to shoot people, the more likely you are to get a lot of prison time.

Jim

MTT TL · January 22, 2010, 07:33 PM

I can't really put a value on the lives of my children. Whatever the cost it will be worth it.

Brian Pfleuger · January 22, 2010, 07:35 PM

I will be interested to see what people have to say about this.

I would guess that your higher choices don't even scratch the surface.

In other words, I think that the cost is generally going to be next to nothing, like $100 or $200 or less, or it's going to be astronomical. If you actually get charged or sued in civil court then $5000 is not even going to cover the retainer.

Glenn Dee · January 22, 2010, 07:39 PM

The price of the ammo

Tucker 1371 · January 22, 2010, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Jim Keenan: a civil suit is still a possibility

Not in GA (supposedly).

Quote:

"51-11-9.
A person who is justified in threatening or using force against another under the provisions of Code Section 16-3-21 or 16-3-23, relating to the use of force in defense of self or others or defense of a habitation, respectively, shall not be held liable in any civil action brought as a result of the threat or use of such force."

Here's the entire page:
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2...ext/hb1061.htm

Quote:

The price of the ammo

And if you are really and truly justified that's how it should be.

Bigjim3 · January 22, 2010, 07:51 PM

It cost me 15k

**Frank Ettin** · January 22, 2010, 08:35 PM

In many cases, $5,000 is going to be pretty much the floor.

You'd be well advised to get a lawyer, and even if everything is absolutely clear cut and cleanly in your favor, you're going to burn up 10+ hours of lawyer time, and that's $2,000 to $5,000 +/-.

If your lawyer is going to have to push the DA to decide that the shooting was righteous or otherwise pitch your position, we're getting up toward $10,000. Throw in a court appearance or two, and now we'd be pushing $15,000 to $20,000.

Now if you're really unlucky and wind up in trial, costs for a jury trial, including private investigator and expert witness fees, will push the bill up to somewhere between $75,000 and $150,000.

You can probably add another $2,000 to $20,000 to the above figures to cover time off work, bail bonds, etc.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 22, 2010, 08:57 PM

But what if it is a good shoot? I thought you got a pizza!

Nice analyses, folks. I've heard the same figures in classes.

**Frank Ettin** · January 22, 2010, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

But what if it is a good shoot? I thought you got a pizza!

What do you say, peetzakilla? Do you deliver?

Brian Pfleuger · January 22, 2010, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiddletown

What do you say, peetzakilla? Do you deliver?

If I get in a shooting and it counts for the retainer, sure!

Otherwise, I don't deliver across the street!

WhyteP38 · January 22, 2010, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Not in GA (supposedly).

That's a fact.

I have never been involved in a self-defense shooting, but a friend of mine was. The BG broke in at night downstairs while my friend and his girlfriend were home upstairs. While the BG was trying to pull the wires to the alarm system, which was blaring, my friend locked his girlfriend in the bedroom as she called 9-1-1 and stationed himself on the stairs. BG finally gave up on the alarm system and went to the stairs, where my friend met him with a .357. One shot to the chest, and no more BG.

Local DA ruled it a justified self-defense shoot. No charges and no civil suit.

Keep in mind that it was a pretty clear self-defense situation. BG had just been released from prison something like 48 or 72 hours earlier, and the alarm system was busted up. If your particular situation is not very clear, and/or your state laws are overly strict, a similar scenario might play out differently for you.

NOTE: I did not vote in this poll because I was not personally involved in the shooting. The above is intended for information purposes only.

old bear · January 22, 2010, 09:32 PM

Not a thing, the PPA had a good attorney on retainer if needed, and my grandfather had an even better one on retainer for years. My case was clear-cut, the legal use of deadly force to stop a fleeing felon.

My incident had nothing to do with it, but the law on using deadly force to stop a fleeing felon was tightened up about 18 months after my shooting.

N.H. Yankee · January 23, 2010, 08:40 AM

A friend of mine and I were discussing this the other day. He stated he felt you may be better off to just walk away if there are no witnessed the shooting. I don't agree because first you NEVER know if there may have been a witness, second you now look GUILTY! I understand the thought in some places where prosecutors and police are anti gun. Another guy I talked to said Shoot, Shovel, shut-up, I think you would look more guilty!

My position is if you are justified ( and you better be sure ) you should stand up for your rights. No one wants to look over their shoulder and have their stomach in knots when the doorbell rings or they see a cruiser for the rest of their life. That's like being mentally incarcerated for life, your physically free but not emotionally. The emotional cost of killing someone is a high price, but the financial cost can also bury you. Bottom line is you fight for your freedom just as hard as you fought for your life.

1911rocks · January 23, 2010, 09:11 AM

One rhetorical question that I want pose is: Where does the "validity/legality of the shooting occur? Answer, in some cases a Grand Jury, in some cases the arraignment. Anyone want to go before a Judge in an arraignment without an Attorney/Lawyer/Solicitor?
Yes, the DA, in some locales can drop it right there.

This post is just to give us all some food for thought.

Remember, the Poll is after the shooting and is based on the respondant actually being involved in the shooting. Hey, maybe even, the victim. If you were the person shot, did you sue?

hoytinak · January 23, 2010, 09:15 AM

Nothing, it was cleared through the local DA. Didn't happen to me but my mother. She shot/killed an intruder (that had already been to prison once for murder) in her home that beat the crap out of my sister with a tire-iron (almost killed her) and was heading for my mother. She never got arrested, even got the gun back. This was back in '98/TX.

1911rocks · January 23, 2010, 09:16 AM

You did a fine job of putting it all together. Nowhere in our system of Law is it implied or suggested that our Freedoms and Liberties are without tangible costs. Sometimes, it's the sacrifice of battle. Sometimes, it's bankruptcy, Overtime, a Second Job, etc. We sometimes forget because our lives, in the US, are as good as they are.

1911rocks · January 23, 2010, 09:22 AM

Thank you for your contribution. TX has some good things going for it. Thanks again.

**Frank Ettin** · January 23, 2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N.H. Yankee

,,,He stated he felt you may be better off to just walk away if there are no witnessed the shooting....

A really lousy idea.

This was recently discussed at length: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=390985 .

geetarman · January 23, 2010, 10:46 PM

I was just watching an episode of "Cops" where they were called to a shooting.

From the program, a guy in his own house, was assaulted by one or two individuals. He claims to have been hit in the face three or more times and he pulled a gun and shot one of the BG 3 times.

The cops rolled up and found the gunshot victim and his friend and got an ambulance called. They interviewed the shooter and he looked like he had been worked over, The shooter claimed to have a CCW and the police recovered the weapon.

The SHOOTER was arrested and booked for attempted homicide.

Whether is is found innocent or not, the cash flow will be substantial.

I do not know if it was a good arrest or not but you can bet the shooter is going to be facing some huge expense.

I am sure the police acted IAW facts developed at the scene but is looks bad for the shooter.

**JohnKSa** · January 23, 2010, 11:14 PM

1911rocks,

Might also have been a good idea to exclude LEO in the line of duty shootings since the department typically pays any legal fees, pays for any counseling required, pays leave as required, etc. The cost to the actual shooter might be nothing while the actual cost (borne by the department) could be considerable.

View Poll Results: The Total Cost of a Self Defense Shooting
Less than $100.00	3	14.29%
Between $101.00 and $1000.00	0	0%
Between $1001.00 and $2000.00	0	0%
Between $2001.00 and $3000.00	0	0%
Between $3001.00 and $5000.00	3	14.29%
Greater than $5001.00 please let us know how much total	15	71.43%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

January 22, 2010, 07:29 AM	#1
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	After the shooting Poll Building on Firepower's "Have you ever been shot at" Poll. First, if you've been involved in a Self Defense shooting NOT AN ACT OF WAR (edited 1/24/09 thank you JohnKSA) or as an LEO what was the total cost to you? Missed work, legal fees, Doctor Bills, hell, I'll even let you factor in stress. Please factor in inflation if this happened in the past and let us know what year this occurred *Please be discreet and let's not let this evolved into a whizzing contest* Thank you very much for your time and contribution!! Last edited by 1911rocks; January 24, 2010 at 09:39 AM.

January 22, 2010, 07:33 PM	#3
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	I can't really put a value on the lives of my children. Whatever the cost it will be worth it. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

January 22, 2010, 07:35 PM	#4
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I will be interested to see what people have to say about this. I would guess that your higher choices don't even scratch the surface. In other words, I think that the cost is generally going to be next to nothing, like $100 or $200 or less, or it's going to be astronomical. If you actually get charged or sued in civil court then $5000 is not even going to cover the retainer. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 22, 2010, 07:51 PM	#7
Bigjim3 Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 419	It cost me 15k __________________ Jesus according to Luke:22:36: Then said he unto them, ,,,,,, and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one......... Thomas Jefferson: "No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

January 22, 2010, 07:16 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I put down $5 grand plus, but every case is different. Remember, self defense is not a "right", it is an affirmative defense to a charge of murder or manslaughter. If the shooting is in the shooter's home, and there is no other involvement (e.g., a drug deal gone bad), the police will probably not make an arrest, and there will be no charges; a civil suit is still a possibility. But, in a shooting outside the home, the shooter will almost always be arrested, so lost work, etc. can be a factor. If the prosecutor chooses not to press charges, that is the end of it from a criminal law point of view. But if charges are pressed, and bail is required, a bail bondsman will charge ten percent, non-refundable, of the bond amount. Bond may not be allowed if the charge is murder, but even if allowed may run to, say, a half million. That means someone has to come up with $50,000, in cash or collateral that they won't get back. Attorney's fees can run $500+ per hour, depending on the lawyer and the case. And on, and on. Then, if the criminal charges are dropped or the outcome of a criminal trial is successful for the defendant, the shooting victim or his survivors may file a civil wrongful death/injury suit. Charges for defending that suit will pile up also. In other words, the idea that you can just shoot someone, claim self-defense and walk away whistling is something that happens in movies, not in real life. The fact is that, web site ninja nonsense notwithstanding, shooting or killing someone, even in a clear cut case of self defense, is NOT taken lightly in modern society. NOTE: Before responding with silly nonsense about how YOU can shoot half the county, claim self defense, and be awarded a medal by the governor, THINK! You will NOT be the exception, and if something does happen, the more you rant and bluster about gun rights, and how want to shoot people, the more likely you are to get a lot of prison time. Jim

January 22, 2010, 07:39 PM	#5
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	The price of the ammo

January 22, 2010, 08:35 PM	#8
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	In many cases, $5,000 is going to be pretty much the floor. You'd be well advised to get a lawyer, and even if everything is absolutely clear cut and cleanly in your favor, you're going to burn up 10+ hours of lawyer time, and that's $2,000 to $5,000 +/-. If your lawyer is going to have to push the DA to decide that the shooting was righteous or otherwise pitch your position, we're getting up toward $10,000. Throw in a court appearance or two, and now we'd be pushing $15,000 to $20,000. Now if you're really unlucky and wind up in trial, costs for a jury trial, including private investigator and expert witness fees, will push the bill up to somewhere between $75,000 and $150,000. You can probably add another $2,000 to $20,000 to the above figures to cover time off work, bail bonds, etc.

January 22, 2010, 08:57 PM	#9
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	But what if it is a good shoot? I thought you got a pizza! Nice analyses, folks. I've heard the same figures in classes. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 22, 2010, 09:32 PM	#13
old bear Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2009 Location: Not close enough to the beach Posts: 1,477	After the shooting Not a thing, the PPA had a good attorney on retainer if needed, and my grandfather had an even better one on retainer for years. My case was clear-cut, the legal use of deadly force to stop a fleeing felon. My incident had nothing to do with it, but the law on using deadly force to stop a fleeing felon was tightened up about 18 months after my shooting.

January 23, 2010, 08:40 AM	#14
N.H. Yankee Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Rural N.H. Posts: 1,586	A friend of mine and I were discussing this the other day. He stated he felt you may be better off to just walk away if there are no witnessed the shooting. I don't agree because first you NEVER know if there may have been a witness, second you now look GUILTY! I understand the thought in some places where prosecutors and police are anti gun. Another guy I talked to said Shoot, Shovel, shut-up, I think you would look more guilty! My position is if you are justified ( and you better be sure ) you should stand up for your rights. No one wants to look over their shoulder and have their stomach in knots when the doorbell rings or they see a cruiser for the rest of their life. That's like being mentally incarcerated for life, your physically free but not emotionally. The emotional cost of killing someone is a high price, but the financial cost can also bury you. Bottom line is you fight for your freedom just as hard as you fought for your life. __________________ The real danger to America is not abroad but within.. Having an open mind is a good thing, but not so open that your brains fall out! Save America, abort liberalism.

January 23, 2010, 09:11 AM	#15
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	Suppositions One rhetorical question that I want pose is: Where does the "validity/legality of the shooting occur? Answer, in some cases a Grand Jury, in some cases the arraignment. Anyone want to go before a Judge in an arraignment without an Attorney/Lawyer/Solicitor? Yes, the DA, in some locales can drop it right there. This post is just to give us all some food for thought. Remember, the Poll is after the shooting and is based on the respondant actually being involved in the shooting. Hey, maybe even, the victim. If you were the person shot, did you sue?

January 23, 2010, 09:15 AM	#16
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	Nothing, it was cleared through the local DA. Didn't happen to me but my mother. She shot/killed an intruder (that had already been to prison once for murder) in her home that beat the crap out of my sister with a tire-iron (almost killed her) and was heading for my mother. She never got arrested, even got the gun back. This was back in '98/TX.

January 23, 2010, 09:16 AM	#17
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	N.H. Yankee You did a fine job of putting it all together. Nowhere in our system of Law is it implied or suggested that our Freedoms and Liberties are without tangible costs. Sometimes, it's the sacrifice of battle. Sometimes, it's bankruptcy, Overtime, a Second Job, etc. We sometimes forget because our lives, in the US, are as good as they are.

January 23, 2010, 09:22 AM	#18
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	Hoytinak Thank you for your contribution. TX has some good things going for it. Thanks again.

January 23, 2010, 10:46 PM	#20
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	I was just watching an episode of "Cops" where they were called to a shooting. From the program, a guy in his own house, was assaulted by one or two individuals. He claims to have been hit in the face three or more times and he pulled a gun and shot one of the BG 3 times. The cops rolled up and found the gunshot victim and his friend and got an ambulance called. They interviewed the shooter and he looked like he had been worked over, The shooter claimed to have a CCW and the police recovered the weapon. The SHOOTER was arrested and booked for attempted homicide. Whether is is found innocent or not, the cash flow will be substantial. I do not know if it was a good arrest or not but you can bet the shooter is going to be facing some huge expense. I am sure the police acted IAW facts developed at the scene but is looks bad for the shooter.

January 23, 2010, 11:14 PM	#21
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,967	1911rocks, Might also have been a good idea to exclude LEO in the line of duty shootings since the department typically pays any legal fees, pays for any counseling required, pays leave as required, etc. The cost to the actual shooter might be nothing while the actual cost (borne by the department) could be considerable. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

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