good defense load for my baikal 12 gauge coach gun

agent00 · August 24, 2009, 04:45 AM

Hallo. I have recently baught an baikal 12 gauge coach gun for home defense. Now i am looking for an good defense load. Which 12 gauge buckshot load would be the best choice for an indoor shooting scenario? I have heard different opineons on that topic. some people recomend 00 buckshot, others say #4 buckhot or #1 and some people even recomend birdshot?

I would be pleased hearing some more opineons.

Thanks for your help in advance

Greetings from austria.

Creeper · August 24, 2009, 10:06 AM

Not to be a dick about it, but please use the search feature to find "best" shell information.
There are a plenty of 12 ga HD, defense load threads, most all are heated, some are lengthy... and some even have thoughtful, measured and objective posts in them.

"defense load" gave me this:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...archid=3681630

"buckshot" gives you this:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...archid=3681635

"home defense load" rewards you with these:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...archid=3681644

C

Laz · August 24, 2009, 10:15 AM

Hello there, Agent00 in beautiful Austria. I have a Baikal (labeled under Remington Spartan) coach gun which I keep around the property. I also have a pump. I'm no expert but what I keep loaded in the Baikal is 2 3/4 inch Sellier & Bellot PCS12 00 Buck. It has 12 pellets. I keep the pump loaded with regular American-made (Remington, Winchester, or Federal) 9 pellet 2 3/4 inch 00 Buck. The reason I do this is because I have a good supply of the S&B and reserve it for the side-by-side because it has a significantly longer unfired overall length due to the way it is manufactured and I prefer to load the magazine of the pump with the slightly shorter American 9 pellet loads figuring the longer S&B loads put just that much more tension on the magazine spring when loaded. The velocity of the S&B is less but the payload is more. For my purposes I consider that a fair trade.

agent00 · August 24, 2009, 10:42 AM

Laz Thx for your tipp. Fortunatelly the ammo suply for shotgun amo ist good. It is no problem to get us ammo from winchester, remington and federal. Sellier&Bellot and Fioochi rounds are also available. I will compare the prices of the S&B round with the us products.

wnycollector · August 24, 2009, 11:17 AM

Check out the Fiocchi low recoil 00 buck. It pattens nicely in my Maverick 88 @15 yards. I also like Nobel Sports #4 buck if you want less penetration but more pellets.

agent00 · August 25, 2009, 02:40 AM

@wnycollector Thx for your tipp.I will check out the loads you have mentioned.

I have allready done some investigations and the Sellier & Bellot PCS12 load would be available at a very good price.

I have also found some military grad bukshot. the winchester rounds would be a bit more epensive than the selier and bellot. has somebody experience with the winchester load.?

Moloch · August 25, 2009, 04:11 AM

I also have a baikal double, I use 00 buck (w/o filler).

agent00 · August 26, 2009, 07:40 AM

@moloch Thx for your answer. has some experience with federal tacitcal buck shot loads? I have found some at a good price.

Laz · August 26, 2009, 09:34 AM

This comment might show ignorance on my part and a lack of sophistication, but I think just about any buckshot load you can find, buy, scrounge or otherwise obtain will do just fine at home defense ranges out of your Baikal coach gun. I would stuff it with whatever was most available. As I said, I use the S&B because I have it available, it's longer, and it has 12 pellets. I would be just as happy with Winchester, Remington, or Federal, or Fiocchi or...

Brian Pfleuger · August 26, 2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

This comment might show ignorance on my part and a lack of sophistication, but I think just about any buckshot load you can find, buy, scrounge or otherwise obtain will do just fine at home defense ranges...

I agree, and not just buckshot.... I find it to be pretty likely that anything coming out of the business end of a 12ga is going to take the fight right out of 99% of all bad guys and if not, the next one will.

Jimdo · September 2, 2009, 02:32 PM

I would agree most of the time... though, the buckshot load is going to have much more knockdown power than a 2 3/4 #9 shot load.
There is a reason that most (if not all tactical teams) are running with 00 buck or 000 buck in their 12 gauges. That reason is that it is a far more effective anti-personnel shotgun cartridge than anything else on the market.

rantingredneck · September 2, 2009, 03:08 PM

You'll find opinions here ranging from birdshot to 000 buckshot to slugs. The debate along that spectrum can get rather heated.

My .02 euros.......

Large buckshot 1, 00, 000 gives the best penetration and wounding potential. #4 distributes a large lead payload over a potentially larger area of the torso, but the individual pellets have questionable ability to reach vital vascular and CNS structures. Bird shot, T, BBB, BB, 2, 3, ........6, 7.5, 8 offers questionable penetration capabilities particularly once you get into the smaller shot sizes.

Within distances measured in feet, most loads from a 12 gauge stand a good chance of being effective enough. Once you move to distances measured in yards, then you're larger shot really has an edge.

If you are an apartment dweller who has no control over whats on the other side of the walls in your home, you may have a need to drop to smaller shot sizes to limit penetration and mitigate risk to those on the other side of the wall. You will not eliminate the risk by doing so, but the risk of fatal collateral damage is less. If you are not an apartment dweller and have control over what's on the other side of the walls in your home, then use something effective and control what's downrange in your field of fire. "Know your target and what lies beyond it" and use the most effective load from your weapon to engage the target.

Next comes finding out what that load is......

00 buckshot is 00 buckshot, to a certain degree. All 00 buckshot uses .33 caliber lead balls, some even copper plate it. Some companies use harder alloys of lead than others resulting in less shot deformation as it travels down the barrel. Some companies use advanced wad technologies to help with patterning. Some companies do all of these things. So when you get right down to it, not all 00 buckshot is created equally.

Premium loadings from Hornady and Federal tend to pattern very well compared to other loadings. TAP, and LE Flite Control tend to be top of the heap in performance. Moving down from there, other companies offer reduced recoil and standard velocity loads that pattern very well. Some at the lower end of the price spectrum (fiocchi, rio royal, sellier & bellot) may throw larger patterns with some fliers due to the softer lead alloys used.

Best advice is to buy a small sample of several brands and pattern test them at ranges you would most likely encounter in defending your home.

Good luck, and have fun!

agent00 · September 17, 2009, 01:34 PM

thx again for the detailed answers. . I have allready ordered an box of all buckshot brands available here in austria. And i will test them this weekend and then I will decide which brand I will chose for hd.

August 24, 2009, 10:06 AM	#2
Creeper Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Woooooshington Posts: 1,797	Not to be a dick about it, but please use the search feature to find "best" shell information. There are a plenty of 12 ga HD, defense load threads, most all are heated, some are lengthy... and some even have thoughtful, measured and objective posts in them. "defense load" gave me this: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...archid=3681630 "buckshot" gives you this: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...archid=3681635 "home defense load" rewards you with these: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...archid=3681644 C __________________ Shoulder Drive Nicholson Club

August 24, 2009, 10:15 AM	#3
Laz Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 1999 Posts: 1,278	Hello there, Agent00 in beautiful Austria. I have a Baikal (labeled under Remington Spartan) coach gun which I keep around the property. I also have a pump. I'm no expert but what I keep loaded in the Baikal is 2 3/4 inch Sellier & Bellot PCS12 00 Buck. It has 12 pellets. I keep the pump loaded with regular American-made (Remington, Winchester, or Federal) 9 pellet 2 3/4 inch 00 Buck. The reason I do this is because I have a good supply of the S&B and reserve it for the side-by-side because it has a significantly longer unfired overall length due to the way it is manufactured and I prefer to load the magazine of the pump with the slightly shorter American 9 pellet loads figuring the longer S&B loads put just that much more tension on the magazine spring when loaded. The velocity of the S&B is less but the payload is more. For my purposes I consider that a fair trade. __________________ Laz I’m just a nobody, trying to tell everybody, about Somebody, who can save anybody.

September 2, 2009, 03:08 PM	#12
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	You'll find opinions here ranging from birdshot to 000 buckshot to slugs. The debate along that spectrum can get rather heated. My .02 euros....... Large buckshot 1, 00, 000 gives the best penetration and wounding potential. #4 distributes a large lead payload over a potentially larger area of the torso, but the individual pellets have questionable ability to reach vital vascular and CNS structures. Bird shot, T, BBB, BB, 2, 3, ........6, 7.5, 8 offers questionable penetration capabilities particularly once you get into the smaller shot sizes. Within distances measured in feet, most loads from a 12 gauge stand a good chance of being effective enough. Once you move to distances measured in yards, then you're larger shot really has an edge. If you are an apartment dweller who has no control over whats on the other side of the walls in your home, you may have a need to drop to smaller shot sizes to limit penetration and mitigate risk to those on the other side of the wall. You will not eliminate the risk by doing so, but the risk of fatal collateral damage is less. If you are not an apartment dweller and have control over what's on the other side of the walls in your home, then use something effective and control what's downrange in your field of fire. "Know your target and what lies beyond it" and use the most effective load from your weapon to engage the target. Next comes finding out what that load is...... 00 buckshot is 00 buckshot, to a certain degree. All 00 buckshot uses .33 caliber lead balls, some even copper plate it. Some companies use harder alloys of lead than others resulting in less shot deformation as it travels down the barrel. Some companies use advanced wad technologies to help with patterning. Some companies do all of these things. So when you get right down to it, not all 00 buckshot is created equally. Premium loadings from Hornady and Federal tend to pattern very well compared to other loadings. TAP, and LE Flite Control tend to be top of the heap in performance. Moving down from there, other companies offer reduced recoil and standard velocity loads that pattern very well. Some at the lower end of the price spectrum (fiocchi, rio royal, sellier & bellot) may throw larger patterns with some fliers due to the softer lead alloys used. Best advice is to buy a small sample of several brands and pattern test them at ranges you would most likely encounter in defending your home. Good luck, and have fun! __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

September 17, 2009, 01:34 PM	#13
agent00 Member Join Date: March 6, 2005 Posts: 95	thx again for the detailed answers. . I have allready ordered an box of all buckshot brands available here in austria. And i will test them this weekend and then I will decide which brand I will chose for hd. Last edited by agent00; September 17, 2009 at 01:40 PM.

August 24, 2009, 04:45 AM	#1
agent00 Member Join Date: March 6, 2005 Posts: 95	good defense load for my baikal 12 gauge coach gun Hallo. I have recently baught an baikal 12 gauge coach gun for home defense. Now i am looking for an good defense load. Which 12 gauge buckshot load would be the best choice for an indoor shooting scenario? I have heard different opineons on that topic. some people recomend 00 buckshot, others say #4 buckhot or #1 and some people even recomend birdshot? I would be pleased hearing some more opineons. Thanks for your help in advance Greetings from austria.

August 24, 2009, 10:42 AM	#4
agent00 Member Join Date: March 6, 2005 Posts: 95	Laz Thx for your tipp. Fortunatelly the ammo suply for shotgun amo ist good. It is no problem to get us ammo from winchester, remington and federal. Sellier&Bellot and Fioochi rounds are also available. I will compare the prices of the S&B round with the us products.

August 24, 2009, 11:17 AM	#5
wnycollector Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2007 Posts: 1,996	Check out the Fiocchi low recoil 00 buck. It pattens nicely in my Maverick 88 @15 yards. I also like Nobel Sports #4 buck if you want less penetration but more pellets.

August 25, 2009, 02:40 AM	#6
agent00 Member Join Date: March 6, 2005 Posts: 95	@wnycollector Thx for your tipp.I will check out the loads you have mentioned. I have allready done some investigations and the Sellier & Bellot PCS12 load would be available at a very good price. I have also found some military grad bukshot. the winchester rounds would be a bit more epensive than the selier and bellot. has somebody experience with the winchester load.?

August 25, 2009, 04:11 AM	#7
Moloch Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Posts: 1,419	I also have a baikal double, I use 00 buck (w/o filler).

August 26, 2009, 07:40 AM	#8
agent00 Member Join Date: March 6, 2005 Posts: 95	@moloch Thx for your answer. has some experience with federal tacitcal buck shot loads? I have found some at a good price.

August 26, 2009, 09:34 AM	#9
Laz Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 1999 Posts: 1,278	This comment might show ignorance on my part and a lack of sophistication, but I think just about any buckshot load you can find, buy, scrounge or otherwise obtain will do just fine at home defense ranges out of your Baikal coach gun. I would stuff it with whatever was most available. As I said, I use the S&B because I have it available, it's longer, and it has 12 pellets. I would be just as happy with Winchester, Remington, or Federal, or Fiocchi or... __________________ Laz I’m just a nobody, trying to tell everybody, about Somebody, who can save anybody.

September 2, 2009, 02:32 PM	#11
Jimdo Member Join Date: May 21, 2009 Posts: 24	I would agree most of the time... though, the buckshot load is going to have much more knockdown power than a 2 3/4 #9 shot load. There is a reason that most (if not all tactical teams) are running with 00 buck or 000 buck in their 12 gauges. That reason is that it is a far more effective anti-personnel shotgun cartridge than anything else on the market.