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Old July 31, 2011, 12:02 AM   #1
BarryLee
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No Firearms Signs

Some businesses now post signs stating that no firearms are allowed even though they would be allowed otherwise. It is my understanding that in Georgia these signs do not carry the force of law behind them, but I realize they do in other States. If I was aware that a business owner did not want me to carry I would respect their wishes and take my business elsewhere. However, the reality is I never think to look for these signs when I enter a business. The few I have seen were very small and inconspicuous it was almost as if they wanted to be able to say they had signs, but were not really concerned if anyone noticed them. It is almost as if they were posted more as protection against future litigation than any real attempt to keep firearms off the premise.

Anyway, I was just curious how many of you check for “No Firearms” signs before entering a business?
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Last edited by BarryLee; July 31, 2011 at 12:07 AM.
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Old July 31, 2011, 01:02 AM   #2
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I remember hearing things about these signs in places like Ohio etc. I actually saw one outside a TGI-Fridays over the border in Indiana a couple of months ago. Oddly enough though I saw one here in Illinois today (where we do not have CCW).

It was posted outside a jewelry store I visited today, saying it was illegal to bring any kind of "dangerous" weapon including knives and firearm not only into the store but also to possess them in the parking lot.

I have to go back next week and will take a pic and post it.
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Old July 31, 2011, 01:33 AM   #3
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I wouldn't say I "check" -- as in making a concerted effort to seek out and find a sign. I do try to be generally aware as I enter the door -- for example, I know there's a handgun in a circle with the standard gummint language where I enter the VA hospital, and where I enter the social insecurity office. I've never noticed one at the mall we most often frequent, but I have no doubt they have a sign hidden somewhere that says in 6-point type that weapons are not allowed.
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Old July 31, 2011, 02:05 AM   #4
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The only two places I recall seeing these signs are on state government buildings (actually illegal to carry in there), and gun shops around here don't allow concealed and/or loaded firearms inside.
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Old July 31, 2011, 07:53 AM   #5
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It depends on the state. In MO, the signs are supposed to be posted in "a conspicuous location" and be of a given size (11x14", letters one inch in size). On occasion you have a place that tries to hide the signs, I don't know what they're trying to accomplish, but the one sign will be ten feet from the door or behind a trash can or planter. Sometimes it's too small and doesn't stand out at all.

Maybe they're trying to have it both ways or something. The truly anti-gun places put it front and center so you know not to go there.

The actual "force" the sign has varies by state. In some places, it's an actual crime to disregard the sign. Here, the business owner can ask you to leave if you are carrying, and if you refuse and a police officer is called, you can be cited for trespassing (in other words, the exact same penalty as if they'd ask you to leave for any other reason).
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Old July 31, 2011, 08:16 AM   #6
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As Technosavant says, it depends on the state. In PA, there is not a "legal" "No Firearms Allowed" sign that property owners can post in a way that violating said sign constitutes a unique crime. However, if a property owner posts some sort of sign saying firearms are not allowed (or concealed, or open carried, or loaded, etc.) and a person violates what that sign says, that person can be arrested for trespassing.

As with Aguila Blanca, I am generally aware of what is posted on a door. However, I don't stand in front of a door reading every single sign, nor do I make an extensive search for any stray signs that are not posted on the door of a business I am about to enter.
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Old July 31, 2011, 09:25 AM   #7
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The placement of those signs is frequently amusing. Our post office has them posted in a place that is completely invisible from the door and is also a place that 99% of customers, everyone who doesn't have a PO box, will never get within 10 feet and around a corner. Granted, in the case of a post office, you should know, but what's the point of the sign? You either already know or you'll never see the sign anyway.

Chuckie Cheese has one that is a picture of a revolver crossed out. I wonder if semi-autos are OK? Least ways, the signs carry no legal weight in NY. You would be treated like any other "trespasser". I oblige by taking my business elsewhere.
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Old July 31, 2011, 09:39 AM   #8
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One of the mega theater complexes here in Louisville had 'no firearms per KRS blah blah' tacked on to the bottom of a large decal for every entry point. Interestingly the statute quoted had to do with forfeiture of the concealed permit if fees weren't paid and the holder refused to submit it to the Sheriff's department.

I talked with the manager about the issue and he shrugged, saying "it's a corporate decision".

The place has been bought/sold three times in two years, and apparently the latest owner got the memo and literally cut off the lower part of the decal. Small victory.
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Old July 31, 2011, 10:55 AM   #9
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Signs have to be conspicuously posted here in Kentucky. Imagine my surprise one day when I noticed a bank I often frequented had a no firearms sign posted on the front door about six inches off the ground. I had been in there numerous times and never saw it.

I generally do a quick glance at the door of businesses but don't search every square inch. My favorites are those where only some of the doors are posted. I always go in through the unposted entrance. I also like the ones that only say no firearems. I feel free to carry my other deadly weapons that my CCL allows me to carry.
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Old July 31, 2011, 02:40 PM   #10
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Wouldn't those signs be the perfect place for some of those bullet hole looking decals?
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Old July 31, 2011, 02:51 PM   #11
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The 3 local NFCU around here now have No Gun signs, That's the reason I used my local farm owners bank to build my new horse barn. They don't like my guns, they don't get my interest and I told them that, they could care less.
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Old July 31, 2011, 04:06 PM   #12
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Since i can't read,i don't see any signs,but if i see metal detectors,then i go elsewhere.
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Old July 31, 2011, 06:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Imagine my surprise one day when I noticed a bank I often frequented had a no firearms sign posted on the front door about six inches off the ground.
Yes, the same thing happened to me. I was actually leaving the bank and noticed an image of a revolver with a line through it about the size of a quarter approximately two feet from the ground. Funny they got bought out and rebranded last month and the decals are gone.
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Old July 31, 2011, 06:23 PM   #14
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What gets me is that anyone really thinks such a sign will stop a crime. Can't you just picture a recently-paroled guy about to walk in and rob the place, he sees the sign, and says, "Gee, I can't rob these people, they don't allow guns in here." To say nothing of the sign somehow persuading a spree-killer to go elsewhere? Anyhow, with my status as a LEO, I generally ignore the signs.
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Old July 31, 2011, 09:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Single Six
What gets me is that anyone really thinks such a sign will stop a crime.
I think it's that they don't think about it at all.

Their assumption is that people carrying legally are within a hair's breadth of snapping and killing everybody in the vicinity, and they're that way ALL THE TIME. Hence, they prefer you to be disarmed when they do business with you.

If pressed, they generally see the silliness of the signs, but then they mutter something about "insurance" or other lie as they walk away (leaving the signs up). They're determined in their ignorance; even when shown the folly of their way, they try to forget it as soon as possible to they can feel safe again.
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Old July 31, 2011, 10:08 PM   #16
BarryLee
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Quote:
but then they mutter something about "insurance"
Actually I think insurance, litigation, bad press, etc. is the very reason businesses post these signs. I doubt many people notice or even care if you carry in their establishments, but in case there is an incident they hope these signs will reduce their liability. Also, I suspect a lot of Corporate Legal Departments are hard at work developing these policies and we will probably see more of this.
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Old July 31, 2011, 10:53 PM   #17
Bernie Lomax
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Quote:
Anyway, I was just curious how many of you check for “No Firearms” signs before entering a business?
In my state, violating those signs is only a class 2 misdemeanor, which is a less serious offense even than p***ing in public. Also, it's a valid defense if you didn't see the sign.

Needless to say, I don't look very hard for those signs, especially if I'm carrying concealed.
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Old July 31, 2011, 11:07 PM   #18
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Technosavant: You and I are on the same sheet of music. I have, on occasion, talked to some of the merchants who post the signs. I have pointed out the obvious folly of it to them, and like you said, they understand and even agree...yet, the signs remain after I've taken my leave. Still, I do what I can to spread what we all take for common sense.
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Old July 31, 2011, 11:36 PM   #19
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Ignore the signs

I look but have ignored them. In my state of PA trespassing is the worst that can happen perhaps similar to many other states. Does anyone know of an incident where CC actually led to an arrest for trespassing? If you're not printing, no worries, and if you're made and notified, you are very likely to be simply asked to leave. I imagine the the risks of being arrested and/or fined to be so vanishingly small that for this reason on balance I simply ignore the signs in PA. Any thoughts on this kind of view ?
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Old August 1, 2011, 05:51 AM   #20
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The VA hospital in Phoenix, AZ has these signs posted at each entrance.

I allways chuckle when I go in, as most of the Vetrans who utilize the facility were and still are dangerous weapons.
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Old August 1, 2011, 10:02 AM   #21
Technosavant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryLee
Actually I think insurance, litigation, bad press, etc. is the very reason businesses post these signs.
Could be, but I've yet to see confirmation from one single insurance company that actually required those signs or an example of an unposted business suffering a loss due to not having them.

I don't remember what gun related board I was on, but folks were actively trying to get an answer about which insurance company was requiring this. Nobody could get an answer from any of them stating that they are required or an insurance break is given for them.

IMO, the folks posting out of liability or insurance concerns are probably the folks who received their GED in Law by correspondence by watching episodes of Law & Order. They may think they need to post it, but they won't be able to explain why or show an actual link to liability or insurance reasons.
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Old August 1, 2011, 10:49 AM   #22
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In Ohio where I live, I run across these signs more than I would like. I try not to do business with these places unless it's absolutely necessary. The last time I encountered one was at the local UPS outlet store. The ones where you take your package and they pack it up and ship it. I told them the last time I was in there that I wouldn't be back unless the sign was removed. The salesman behind the counter smiled and said I understand.

It really creates a nervous situation in my opinion. You always have to make an effort to make sure your not breaking the law, every place you go.

Around 1-2 weeks after I received my first CCL I was meeting with my local branch bank manager at her office in the bank. I didn't see any signs and walked in unconcerned. I had read the laws concerning where you could, and especially where you couldn't carry legally in Ohio over and over. I was opening a new account when she said, "I need your drivers license." As I was pulling them from my wallet she seen the CC license behind my drivers license and said in a serious way, "is that a gun permit?" I immediately thought uh oh, I just received my CCL and I've already made a mistake. She's going to have me arrested. I was trying to remember, is banks listed with schools, post offices, mental hospitals, churches, etc...... how did I miss that!

Needless to say I looked at her, probably with panic written all over my face and she smiled and said, "My husband just got his, thats how I recongnized it." Whew........

Now that I've had my license for some time and feel a whole lot more comfortable, I probably would just smile and say yep that's what it is.

Anyway I hope to see less and less of these signs instead of more.

Last edited by Hitthespot; August 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Grammer corrections.
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Old August 1, 2011, 11:09 AM   #23
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As I was pulling them from my wallet she seen the CC license behing my drivers license and said in a serious way, "is that a gun permit."
That made me chuckle - last weekend, I stopped by a branch of my bank to get some papers notarized. I gave the lady my driver's license and she pointed out that it was expired (whoops!) So I gave her my CCW permit instead. No problem, no reaction, just business as usual.

The buildings where I work have prominent signs at every entrance (as well as at the parking lot entrances) with a revolver and a Bowie knife with slashes through them and text that bans weapons and replicas of weapons. I figure that it's easier to comply with that request than it is to get fired.

The gun shops around here seem to only require that non-concealed weapons be either cased or have the actions open. And I honestly haven't run across any businesses that have a "no guns" sign anywhere.
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Old August 1, 2011, 12:20 PM   #24
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At the same TGI Fridays in Indiana I referenced above, the server carded me when I ordered a beer( I am a young looking 25). My wallet's drivers license slot is detachable and has an above/below configuration so you can "flip out" your license without removing it from the wallet. Normally my drivers license is in the upper portion and my FOID card is in the lower. Like I normally do, I pulled the whole assembly free from my wallet and when this guy saw my FOID card he went white as a ghost and immediately asked if I was conceal carrying. I informed the gentlemen that in Illinois where I am from, they do not let us do that so I am not carrying. The rest of the night this guy acted like I was from Mars or something.
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Old August 1, 2011, 12:39 PM   #25
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The only place I've noticed signs in my area (Eastern NC) is establishments that are prohibited by law. On the other hand, the local Gander Mountain has a sign stating that all weapons being brought in for repair, service, or trade in must be unloaded and cased. It also says that this does NOT apply to a weapon being carried either conceled or openly for personal protection. Good on them!
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