THe ARmy is Looking at the Metalstorm 9mm Rifle

Hard Ball · October 22, 2000, 06:34 PM

The Army recently asked Metalstorm Ltd to demomstrate their Metalstorm 9mm rifles, which have a cyclic rate of fire of 90,000 rounds per minute. These are prototype weapons, byt they worked well enough.
The Army seems to be impressed and has given Metalstorm Ltd some R&D funding to continue their developmentThe demonstration rifles are 9mms, but the basic design could be adaoted to other calibers.
A 9mm handgun and a 40mm grenade launcher are in work.

Nightcrawler · October 22, 2000, 06:40 PM

Metalstorm? Who's that? 90,000 rounds a minute? Um...maybe there's something I don't understand about this gun, but how in the heck is that supposed to be possible? And what's the point? You'd empty a magazine in less than a 10th of a second. Who needs to pump 30 or 50 rounds into one badguy?

Nightcrawler · October 22, 2000, 06:51 PM

In fact, using a calculator, 60 seconds divided by 90,000 rounds equals...

6.66666666666666666666666666666667e-4 seconds for each round. That's 0.02 seconds to empty a 30 round magazine, 0.03333 seconds to empty a 50 round magazine, and 0.0666 seconds to empty a 100 round drum.

If such a weapon is possible (I wonder. I've been unable to find anything on this rifle or "Metalstorm LTD" anywhere), it seems like overkill to me.

Badger Arms · October 22, 2000, 07:08 PM

1500 rounds per second. How heavy would that rifle have to be? How do you get the ammunition going 40 Miles per hour (rough calculation) Instantly and then stop it. Obviously this isn't a selective fire gun. Also, unless the original post was inaccurate, a one second 1500 round burst would surely vaporize a significant portion of the bore.

Hard Ball · October 22, 2000, 07:13 PM

Metalstorm is an Australian company. The rifle does not have a magazine oer se. In the configuration demonstrated, the rifle has six fixed (non rotating barrels0 loaded as an enbloc group) Each barrel is loaded with multiple 9mm projectiles on the "Roman candle" principle. Ther are no moving parts other than the trigger in the firing cycle, Projectiles are discharged electrically. The rifle is reloaded by unlocking and removing the barrel group and replacing it with a fresh pre-loaded barrel grup. The main tactical advantage is that a multiple round burst is fired so fast that supposedly all bullets will hit the target.
It does sound far out but the Army was suficently impressed to put some money into supporting further development.
Note that 90,000 rounds per monute is the cyclic rate. The weapon could not actually fire 90.000 rpm. The achievable rate of fire would of course be lower just as an M16 has a cyclic rate of 700-800 rounds per minute but is actual tactical rate of fire as lower. I believe that the Metalstorm design provides for a burst limiter function which would allow the user to select the number of rounds to be fired per burst.

[This message has been edited by Hard Ball (edited October 22, 2000).]

George Hill · October 22, 2000, 07:19 PM

It is not a conventional firearm.

Its a very high tec roman candle.

The rate of fire is possible. But is doubt the balistics are that impressive.
I have also seen a belt-fed .22LR SMG with a rate of fire up to 7,000 RPM. (Yes - you read that correctly I didnt mis type)
My point is neither are very effective nore practical.

Chaulk it up to the Army's morbid curiosity.

Shin-Tao · October 22, 2000, 07:22 PM

Researched as a possible "phalanx" replacement.
Desing would also work as a directional mine.

Nightcrawler · October 22, 2000, 07:30 PM

Ah, I see. But as a personal weapon, such a device would be ridiculously impractical. I feel the same way about guns that have these silly 3-round burst limitations. You can't use them to provide sweeping fire to keep the enemy's head down while your buddy moves, and there's no point in wasting three bullets on one badguy when semiautomatic works just fine for accurate firing. Burst control should be in the shooter's finger.

Kernel · October 22, 2000, 07:43 PM

So it's a kind of hand held Claymore? Would it then also be labled "FRONT TO ENEMY - DO NOT EAT"

-- Kernel

JWR · October 22, 2000, 09:40 PM

You forgot DO NOT APPLY TO OPEN FLAME. Can't have any Kansas farm boys warmin up their new commie poppers over the fuel tabs.

vince weng · October 23, 2000, 08:17 AM

I have heard about this type weapon. With its amazing high speed firing rate, it can easily deploy a "zone" to block the coming missiles or any fast moving targets. This weapon was not designed to attack human target.

Dusty Hk · October 23, 2000, 03:04 PM

www.metalstorm-ltd.com/index2.html

Shin-Tao · October 23, 2000, 03:41 PM

Cumilitive recoil in a small arm of this type would be unworkable.
As to reloading...
Good layout for MBT missile defense systems.
Scaled up to 12mm, good replacement for unguided rocket pods on close airsupport fighter/bombers.
Service rifle? Nyet!

SCOOB · October 23, 2000, 08:21 PM

What I would like to know is 'When will the pocket version be available?'

------------------
Keep the 10 rings ragged!

guerilla1138 · October 23, 2000, 11:18 PM

get me one in 50BMG, with some IDHE(impact detonating high explsive)ammo.
or one in one of those oh so cool explosive anti material rounds.

Hard Ball · October 24, 2000, 06:49 PM

The six barreled 9mm rifle tested by the Army had 15 rounds loaded in each barrel for a totl 0f 90 rounds avaikable for firing without reloading.
Of course the number of shots any Metalform pistol or rifle can fire is limted by the number of rounds loaded at the instant you start firing. After these rounds have been fired you cannot fire again until you have reloaded. However, you could fire all the loaded rounds at the cyclic rate if you decided to do so.
The 9mm Metalform rifle demonstrated to the Army had six barrels in its barrel group. Each barrel was loaded with 15 rounds so a total of 90 shots were available. The shooter can select single shots (semiautomatic), or a selected number of shots per burst. If he selects three round bursts for example he can fire 30 bursts without reloading. After that he must replace the fired enbloc barrel group with a fresh loaded barrel group before he can fire again.

Hard Ball · October 25, 2000, 11:16 AM

A little more on the Army's contract with Metalstorm and what they expect to get from it.
The Pentagon has given Metalstorm ten million dollars to develop multiple barrel and single barrel rifles over the next three years. The multi barrel rifle will be a modified version of the six barreled 9mm rifle fired at the demonstration. Prototypes will be delivered over the next three years, Metalstorm has also demonstrated the ability to fire 40mm grenades from their system so the prototype rifles may include the ability to fire 40mm ammunition as well as rifle caliber ammunition providing a integrated high tech version of the current M16/M203 40mm grenade launcher combination.

Bruegger · October 25, 2000, 04:05 PM

Assuming they're really considering using this thing as an individual weapon, if it isn't the stupidest idea in the universe, it's pretty darn close.

Let's see: you have to lug around a SIX-BARREL gun, and to reload, you have to snap on six new barrels. It fires at 80 bazillion RPM but has only 15 rounds per barrel. Obviously the thing can't be accurate in a hand-held model. How do you "regulate" six barrels to POA/POI? Yet another attempt to replace marksmanship with gimmickry and tomfoolery (sorry about the harsh language!). As Einstein was known to say, "[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]?"

What a bunch of rocketscientists... Next invention will be the man-packed 240mm double-barrel howitzer as a replacement for the M203.

Glamdring · October 25, 2000, 08:51 PM

hmm...the 40 mm grenade launcher one sounds interesting for tanks and AFV/APC...both for rapid smoke deployment and also for defense against anti tank missles and close in infantry. Shades of Drake's fusion powered tanks.

Gino · October 26, 2000, 02:01 PM

This is a great example of a totally new paradigm in weaponry. Who really knows what uses it might have in the future?

BTW, the rounds loaded into a single barrel are loaded one in front of the other. This means that each bullet will contact a different length of rifling. So the gun would not be "accurate" if a small single target was being fired upon. It would definitely be an "area saturating" weapon.

I agree this weapon could have some interesting uses.

Ric · October 26, 2000, 02:35 PM

The 9mm Metal Storm has been around for a few years, DSTO in Oz reviewed it early '99. Max rate of fire is *very* fast, the six-barrel prototype managed 180 rds in 0.01 sec --- yes siree bubba -- that's 1,080,000 rpm.

more details at:
http://www.sciam.com/1999/0499issue/0499techbus2.html

-ric

Hard Ball · October 26, 2000, 05:10 PM

One thing that worries me is recoil. Depepending of the ballistics of the round fired this could be a real problem. Touching off say a six round burst which is for all practical purposes instantaneous could be unpleasant.
I have not been able to find out the ballistics of the Metalstorm 9mm round or the weight of the demonstration rifles so I can't calculate the recoil. If anyone has this information I would appreciate it if they posted it.

October 22, 2000, 06:34 PM	#1
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	The Army recently asked Metalstorm Ltd to demomstrate their Metalstorm 9mm rifles, which have a cyclic rate of fire of 90,000 rounds per minute. These are prototype weapons, byt they worked well enough. The Army seems to be impressed and has given Metalstorm Ltd some R&D funding to continue their developmentThe demonstration rifles are 9mms, but the basic design could be adaoted to other calibers. A 9mm handgun and a 40mm grenade launcher are in work.

October 22, 2000, 06:40 PM	#2
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Metalstorm? Who's that? 90,000 rounds a minute? Um...maybe there's something I don't understand about this gun, but how in the heck is that supposed to be possible? And what's the point? You'd empty a magazine in less than a 10th of a second. Who needs to pump 30 or 50 rounds into one badguy?

October 22, 2000, 06:51 PM	#3
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	In fact, using a calculator, 60 seconds divided by 90,000 rounds equals... 6.66666666666666666666666666666667e-4 seconds for each round. That's 0.02 seconds to empty a 30 round magazine, 0.03333 seconds to empty a 50 round magazine, and 0.0666 seconds to empty a 100 round drum. If such a weapon is possible (I wonder. I've been unable to find anything on this rifle or "Metalstorm LTD" anywhere), it seems like overkill to me.

October 22, 2000, 07:08 PM	#4
Badger Arms Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2000 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 1,700	1500 rounds per second. How heavy would that rifle have to be? How do you get the ammunition going 40 Miles per hour (rough calculation) Instantly and then stop it. Obviously this isn't a selective fire gun. Also, unless the original post was inaccurate, a one second 1500 round burst would surely vaporize a significant portion of the bore.

October 22, 2000, 07:13 PM	#5
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	Metalstorm is an Australian company. The rifle does not have a magazine oer se. In the configuration demonstrated, the rifle has six fixed (non rotating barrels0 loaded as an enbloc group) Each barrel is loaded with multiple 9mm projectiles on the "Roman candle" principle. Ther are no moving parts other than the trigger in the firing cycle, Projectiles are discharged electrically. The rifle is reloaded by unlocking and removing the barrel group and replacing it with a fresh pre-loaded barrel grup. The main tactical advantage is that a multiple round burst is fired so fast that supposedly all bullets will hit the target. It does sound far out but the Army was suficently impressed to put some money into supporting further development. Note that 90,000 rounds per monute is the cyclic rate. The weapon could not actually fire 90.000 rpm. The achievable rate of fire would of course be lower just as an M16 has a cyclic rate of 700-800 rounds per minute but is actual tactical rate of fire as lower. I believe that the Metalstorm design provides for a burst limiter function which would allow the user to select the number of rounds to be fired per burst. [This message has been edited by Hard Ball (edited October 22, 2000).]

October 22, 2000, 07:19 PM	#6
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	It is not a conventional firearm. Its a very high tec roman candle. The rate of fire is possible. But is doubt the balistics are that impressive. I have also seen a belt-fed .22LR SMG with a rate of fire up to 7,000 RPM. (Yes - you read that correctly I didnt mis type) My point is neither are very effective nore practical. Chaulk it up to the Army's morbid curiosity.

October 22, 2000, 07:22 PM	#7
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	Researched as a possible "phalanx" replacement. Desing would also work as a directional mine.

October 22, 2000, 07:30 PM	#8
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Ah, I see. But as a personal weapon, such a device would be ridiculously impractical. I feel the same way about guns that have these silly 3-round burst limitations. You can't use them to provide sweeping fire to keep the enemy's head down while your buddy moves, and there's no point in wasting three bullets on one badguy when semiautomatic works just fine for accurate firing. Burst control should be in the shooter's finger.

October 22, 2000, 07:43 PM	#9
Kernel Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 1999 Location: Madison, WI.... "78 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality" Posts: 923	So it's a kind of hand held Claymore? Would it then also be labled "FRONT TO ENEMY - DO NOT EAT" -- Kernel

October 22, 2000, 09:40 PM	#10
JWR Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2000 Posts: 180	You forgot DO NOT APPLY TO OPEN FLAME. Can't have any Kansas farm boys warmin up their new commie poppers over the fuel tabs.

October 23, 2000, 08:17 AM	#11
vince weng Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 1999 Location: Edison, NJ, USA Posts: 122	I have heard about this type weapon. With its amazing high speed firing rate, it can easily deploy a "zone" to block the coming missiles or any fast moving targets. This weapon was not designed to attack human target.

October 23, 2000, 03:04 PM	#12
Dusty Hk Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2000 Posts: 3	www.metalstorm-ltd.com/index2.html

October 23, 2000, 03:41 PM	#13
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	Cumilitive recoil in a small arm of this type would be unworkable. As to reloading... Good layout for MBT missile defense systems. Scaled up to 12mm, good replacement for unguided rocket pods on close airsupport fighter/bombers. Service rifle? Nyet!

October 23, 2000, 08:21 PM	#14
SCOOB Member Join Date: October 22, 2000 Posts: 20	What I would like to know is 'When will the pocket version be available?' ------------------ Keep the 10 rings ragged!

October 23, 2000, 11:18 PM	#15
guerilla1138 Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2000 Posts: 294	get me one in 50BMG, with some IDHE(impact detonating high explsive)ammo. or one in one of those oh so cool explosive anti material rounds.

October 24, 2000, 06:49 PM	#16
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	The six barreled 9mm rifle tested by the Army had 15 rounds loaded in each barrel for a totl 0f 90 rounds avaikable for firing without reloading. Of course the number of shots any Metalform pistol or rifle can fire is limted by the number of rounds loaded at the instant you start firing. After these rounds have been fired you cannot fire again until you have reloaded. However, you could fire all the loaded rounds at the cyclic rate if you decided to do so. The 9mm Metalform rifle demonstrated to the Army had six barrels in its barrel group. Each barrel was loaded with 15 rounds so a total of 90 shots were available. The shooter can select single shots (semiautomatic), or a selected number of shots per burst. If he selects three round bursts for example he can fire 30 bursts without reloading. After that he must replace the fired enbloc barrel group with a fresh loaded barrel group before he can fire again.

October 25, 2000, 11:16 AM	#17
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	A little more on the Army's contract with Metalstorm and what they expect to get from it. The Pentagon has given Metalstorm ten million dollars to develop multiple barrel and single barrel rifles over the next three years. The multi barrel rifle will be a modified version of the six barreled 9mm rifle fired at the demonstration. Prototypes will be delivered over the next three years, Metalstorm has also demonstrated the ability to fire 40mm grenades from their system so the prototype rifles may include the ability to fire 40mm ammunition as well as rifle caliber ammunition providing a integrated high tech version of the current M16/M203 40mm grenade launcher combination.

October 25, 2000, 04:05 PM	#18
Bruegger Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 1999 Location: Indiana Posts: 637	Assuming they're really considering using this thing as an individual weapon, if it isn't the stupidest idea in the universe, it's pretty darn close. Let's see: you have to lug around a SIX-BARREL gun, and to reload, you have to snap on six new barrels. It fires at 80 bazillion RPM but has only 15 rounds per barrel. Obviously the thing can't be accurate in a hand-held model. How do you "regulate" six barrels to POA/POI? Yet another attempt to replace marksmanship with gimmickry and tomfoolery (sorry about the harsh language!). As Einstein was known to say, "[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]?" What a bunch of rocketscientists... Next invention will be the man-packed 240mm double-barrel howitzer as a replacement for the M203.

October 25, 2000, 08:51 PM	#19
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	hmm...the 40 mm grenade launcher one sounds interesting for tanks and AFV/APC...both for rapid smoke deployment and also for defense against anti tank missles and close in infantry. Shades of Drake's fusion powered tanks.

October 26, 2000, 02:01 PM	#20
Gino Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: Lake City, FL USA Posts: 919	This is a great example of a totally new paradigm in weaponry. Who really knows what uses it might have in the future? BTW, the rounds loaded into a single barrel are loaded one in front of the other. This means that each bullet will contact a different length of rifling. So the gun would not be "accurate" if a small single target was being fired upon. It would definitely be an "area saturating" weapon. I agree this weapon could have some interesting uses.

October 26, 2000, 02:35 PM	#21
Ric Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2000 Posts: 107	The 9mm Metal Storm has been around for a few years, DSTO in Oz reviewed it early '99. Max rate of fire is very fast, the six-barrel prototype managed 180 rds in 0.01 sec --- yes siree bubba -- that's 1,080,000 rpm. more details at: http://www.sciam.com/1999/0499issue/0499techbus2.html -ric

October 26, 2000, 05:10 PM	#22
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	One thing that worries me is recoil. Depepending of the ballistics of the round fired this could be a real problem. Touching off say a six round burst which is for all practical purposes instantaneous could be unpleasant. I have not been able to find out the ballistics of the Metalstorm 9mm round or the weight of the demonstration rifles so I can't calculate the recoil. If anyone has this information I would appreciate it if they posted it.