Carry without safety?

PhoenixConflagration · February 6, 2009, 07:29 AM

I have a PT-111 pro, which is DA/SA. It has a manual safety which is not a decocker, so it is in SA mode pretty much all the time. The DA is just for double-tapping bad rounds. I've been practicing my draw at home, dryfiring (none of the ranges around here allow drawing) and I've had problems drawing and releasing the safety smoothly. Trying to release the safety messes up my grip. My question is, is it safe to carry with a round in the chamber and the safety off? I have a Comp-tac IWB holster, so the trigger isn't exposed or anything. I'd like to hear a few opinions. Would you carry in SA mode with one in the pipe, unsafetied?

WC145 · February 6, 2009, 07:36 AM

It should be safe to carry chambered, hammer down, safety off, giving you a DA first round or cocked and locked, you choose what you like better.
DO NOT carry it chambered, cocked, and safety off!!!!! That's a ND waiting for a place to happen.

Don P · February 6, 2009, 07:44 AM

Absolutely safe to do so. Masaad has stated that in the past LE has survived having there guns wrestled away from them and being used against them by having the safety on and the perp could not get the gun to fire because of the safety. Best bet for you is to do what is comfy for you.

The Great Mahoo · February 6, 2009, 08:32 AM

I'd not carry with the safety off if you can't decock. I agree with WC145, its a ND waiting to happen. Just keep practicing and you'll get it.

Bill DeShivs · February 6, 2009, 08:51 AM

The D/A is for using the gun D/A- not for "double tapping bad rounds."
Learn to use the gun as it was designed to be used. This requires practice. If removing the safety is difficult for you, you need lots of practice.

PhoenixConflagration · February 6, 2009, 09:54 AM

I'm not sure some of you understand the operation of my pistol. There is no hammer to decock. The double action is for double striking, because once you rack the slide to chamber a round, the gun is in SA mode. There is no way to decock (striker-fired). Can anyone with experience with my kind of gun answer the question?

Hornett · February 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

The D/A is for using the gun D/A- not for "double tapping bad rounds."
Learn to use the gun as it was designed to be used. This requires practice. If removing the safety is difficult for you, you need lots of practice.

Boy I never thought I would see the day when I disagreed with Bill DeShivs on anything.
I own a pt111 millennium pro myself and it has a concealed hammer that is partially cocked when you rack the slide.
There is NO WAY to lower the hammer safely on a live round.
The original pt 111 was DAO, but the whole hammer trigger mechanism was revised on the mil pro.

WC145 · February 6, 2009, 10:27 AM

My mistake, I just took a look at the info on the gun and, it looks to me like the gun was designed to be carried chambered, safety on - Condition One like a 1911. If it really does have a shorter, lighter "first" pull (SA), I would definitely carry it safety on and practice with it (as Bill said) until it becomes comfortable for you. It looks like the safety is postioned like a 1911 so you can sweep it off with your thumb so maybe you can work on releasing it as you draw or drawing with your thumb positioned on the safety so that you're set to release it as you drop your thumb to grip the gun for firing.

Hornett · February 6, 2009, 10:30 AM

I can tell you that my safety is also difficult to operate.
It's mechanically sound, but its just so flat and a little bit too far forward.
I carry mine in my vehicle and it is always condition 3 (empty chamber full mag) so I really can't help you with your question much.

I would not carry it with the safety off.
If practice does not help, you might need to do some trading...

NavyLT · February 6, 2009, 12:29 PM

I have a PT145. I will not carry it with the safety off. To my knowledge, and I might be wrong, but I think the statement that

Quote:

I own a pt111 millennium pro myself and it has a concealed hammer that is partially cocked when you rack the slide.

might be erroneous, because I believe the striker is fully cocked and it is true SA.

My recommendation would be to either practice more or replace it with a DA/SA gun.

PhoenixConflagration · February 6, 2009, 01:28 PM

I would actually prefer a DAO gun, but the Mil Pro was what I could afford. The trigger on it has a barely springy 'dead zone' of maybe a half inch where the DA would be if it were empty and you'd already dryfired it(the only way to get to DA), then it comes to rest against the break point, where you then have to actually squeeze to make it break and fire. The only reason I contemplated carrying with the safety off is because of all that travel before coming to any actual mechanical resistance. But if that's not safe, then I'll just have to keep practicing until I can afford that Glock or M&P I want. Thanks.

Playboypenguin · February 6, 2009, 01:33 PM

I would never, ever carry a SA gun cocked with the safety off. It is an example of a poor decision waiting to become a tragedy.

Either learn to use the gun in the manner it was intended or replace it with something like a Kahr or a gun with a decocker.

Hornett · February 6, 2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

because I believe the striker is fully cocked and it is true SA.

Yes I think that is more correct.
There is NO internal hammer.

Sometimes I get confused, other times it's worse...

Bill DeShivs · February 6, 2009, 02:22 PM

I just read "D/A" without giving any thought to the gun model.
S/A guns should be carried loaded with safety on. Just practice a lot. Presentation will get easier.

Erik · February 6, 2009, 07:58 PM

A rather confusing thread...

So I take it the pistol in question has a mechanism providing something akin to a long, SA trigger pull and an option to carry with the safety either on or off? And that it has a DA second strike capability? Something along those lines?

If that's the case then I'm with the carry it chambered, cocked with the safety on crowd.

Playboypenguin · February 6, 2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

So I take it the pistol in question has a mechanism providing something akin to a long, SA trigger pull and an option to carry with the safety either on or off? And that it has a DA second strike capability? Something along those lines?

The true difference is whether something is truly SA or actually a hammerless DAO gun where the trigger pulls the firing pin back against a spring before releasing it. Often the firing pin is held partially cocked by a sear but it is still not cocked...as it would be in a SA pistol. It is not safe to carry true SA pistols, like a 1911 and others, cocked with no safety.

I am not that familiar with the PT-111 and I am not sure if it is a true SA or more like the DAO of a Kahr or Para LDA.

scorpion_tyr · February 7, 2009, 08:48 AM

I would not carry SA with the safety off. I'd get lot's of practice and look at different ways of disengaging the safety. Try switching the safety off as or right before you draw if possible. I would still try to do it with your shooting hand as you may not have your other hand available when you need it for a real threat. If nothing seems to work for you go look for another gun. One of the main things I look for on my guns is that I can manipulate all the features without changing my grip.

Jim March · February 7, 2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

If removing the safety is difficult for you, you need lots of practice.

Right, OR a bigger safety? Maybe an ambi safety? You can get 1911 safeties in scads of different shapes and configurations, maybe there's options for your gun too?

Kline605 · February 7, 2009, 04:43 PM

You need to get more practice period. If you can't work the safety effectively after that, get a different firearm. You can practice your techniques, including the draw, at the house with a few "dummy" rounds, but I would also suggest a professional trainer or course.

G-man 26 · February 8, 2009, 12:34 AM

I had a mill pro pt145. I got rid of it because I always threw the first round in the dirt 6 feet in front if me. No amount of training could cure me of it.

I understood the workings of the gun as striker fired (no hammer), and "half cocked" when the slide had been cycled. The ability to pull the trigger (DA) fully through the "cocking" and past the striker release on the second attempt was just like a...(wait for it)...Glock. So, I'm sure all the Glock cool aid fan boys will advise you to go ahead and carry with the tube full and no safety. Right? It's just like the 3.5lb trigger after all.

Ok, I need to quit picking on my favorite pistol (G-26). I think you should practice until you are cured of your trouble with the safety, or convinced that you can't be. If you can not be cured of it, and you still REALLY like the gun, see if you can get it modified. An extended safety would be good. Or get a better gun for you.

Thanks for the opportunity for a little humor against the Glock. LOL.

Hornett · February 9, 2009, 12:20 PM

Maybe this will help clear some things up
...from the Taurus forum

This applies to the mil pro (3rd generation pistols only)

Quote:

Trigger is SA/DA, NOT DAO or DA/SA. Distinction is that the striker stays cocked and the first and subsequent rounds are fired with a short (after initial takeup) light and very crisp trigger pull. Should the slide then not cycle, the striker reverts to double action mode allowing a second (or more) strike on the primer. (Clears most FTF's in case of hard to ignite primers). Once the slide cycles again it's back to SA mode. Can be carried "cocked and locked" with the downward sweeping manual safety. Also has an internal trigger safety.

I thought the pistol was "half cocked" like G Man 26, but it's not.

schnarrgj · February 9, 2009, 05:13 PM

I have and carry the PT-111PRO. It is SA with a DA second strike. With practice, I have been able to draw and release the safety in one motion. It does take practice as with any action that requires muscle memory. I do not find it any more or less difficult than doing it with a 1911. It could be the size of our hands or the grip we use that differs. For me it works great.

G-man 26 · February 10, 2009, 04:12 PM

Ok, I guess I got that one wrong. Sorry. I need to revisit the manual on the one I had, I was sure that was the terminology used. Still, don' tell the Glock boys I said I was wrong.

I would not carry it without the safety on in any case. If you do, leave the round out of the chamber. If "cocked" or "half cocked", the trigger is fairly light and could cause a problem.

ranburr · February 10, 2009, 04:46 PM

The way this stryker fired pistol is set up internally, it is perfectly safe to carry without the manual safety engaged. The pistol will not fire without a deliberate and somewhat long squeeze of the trigger for the first shot.

ranburr

Stevie-Ray · February 10, 2009, 07:29 PM

Safety on with my 1911. Safety off with my HKUSPC. Glock...well, you know.

February 6, 2009, 07:29 AM	#1
PhoenixConflagration Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 517	Carry without safety? I have a PT-111 pro, which is DA/SA. It has a manual safety which is not a decocker, so it is in SA mode pretty much all the time. The DA is just for double-tapping bad rounds. I've been practicing my draw at home, dryfiring (none of the ranges around here allow drawing) and I've had problems drawing and releasing the safety smoothly. Trying to release the safety messes up my grip. My question is, is it safe to carry with a round in the chamber and the safety off? I have a Comp-tac IWB holster, so the trigger isn't exposed or anything. I'd like to hear a few opinions. Would you carry in SA mode with one in the pipe, unsafetied? __________________ *There is nothing quite so dangerous as a pacifist, for they will readily sacrifice others* for their ideals.**

February 6, 2009, 07:44 AM	#3
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Absolutely safe to do so. Masaad has stated that in the past LE has survived having there guns wrestled away from them and being used against them by having the safety on and the perp could not get the gun to fire because of the safety. Best bet for you is to do what is comfy for you. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

February 6, 2009, 08:51 AM	#5
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,980	The D/A is for using the gun D/A- not for "double tapping bad rounds." Learn to use the gun as it was designed to be used. This requires practice. If removing the safety is difficult for you, you need lots of practice. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

February 6, 2009, 09:54 AM	#6
PhoenixConflagration Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 517	I'm not sure some of you understand the operation of my pistol. There is no hammer to decock. The double action is for double striking, because once you rack the slide to chamber a round, the gun is in SA mode. There is no way to decock (striker-fired). Can anyone with experience with my kind of gun answer the question? __________________ *There is nothing quite so dangerous as a pacifist, for they will readily sacrifice others* for their ideals.**

February 6, 2009, 10:30 AM	#9
Hornett Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2006 Posts: 569	I can tell you that my safety is also difficult to operate. It's mechanically sound, but its just so flat and a little bit too far forward. I carry mine in my vehicle and it is always condition 3 (empty chamber full mag) so I really can't help you with your question much. I would not carry it with the safety off. If practice does not help, you might need to do some trading... __________________ Guns don't kill people, Jack Bauer kills people.

February 6, 2009, 07:36 AM	#2
WC145 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Downeast Maine Posts: 1,836	It should be safe to carry chambered, hammer down, safety off, giving you a DA first round or cocked and locked, you choose what you like better. DO NOT carry it chambered, cocked, and safety off!!!!! That's a ND waiting for a place to happen.

February 6, 2009, 08:32 AM	#4
The Great Mahoo Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2008 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 1,269	I'd not carry with the safety off if you can't decock. I agree with WC145, its a ND waiting to happen. Just keep practicing and you'll get it.

February 6, 2009, 10:27 AM	#8
WC145 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Downeast Maine Posts: 1,836	My mistake, I just took a look at the info on the gun and, it looks to me like the gun was designed to be carried chambered, safety on - Condition One like a 1911. If it really does have a shorter, lighter "first" pull (SA), I would definitely carry it safety on and practice with it (as Bill said) until it becomes comfortable for you. It looks like the safety is postioned like a 1911 so you can sweep it off with your thumb so maybe you can work on releasing it as you draw or drawing with your thumb positioned on the safety so that you're set to release it as you drop your thumb to grip the gun for firing.

February 6, 2009, 01:28 PM	#11
PhoenixConflagration Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 517	I would actually prefer a DAO gun, but the Mil Pro was what I could afford. The trigger on it has a barely springy 'dead zone' of maybe a half inch where the DA would be if it were empty and you'd already dryfired it(the only way to get to DA), then it comes to rest against the break point, where you then have to actually squeeze to make it break and fire. The only reason I contemplated carrying with the safety off is because of all that travel before coming to any actual mechanical resistance. But if that's not safe, then I'll just have to keep practicing until I can afford that Glock or M&P I want. Thanks. __________________ *There is nothing quite so dangerous as a pacifist, for they will readily sacrifice others* for their ideals.**

February 6, 2009, 01:33 PM	#12
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	I would never, ever carry a SA gun cocked with the safety off. It is an example of a poor decision waiting to become a tragedy. Either learn to use the gun in the manner it was intended or replace it with something like a Kahr or a gun with a decocker.

February 6, 2009, 02:22 PM	#14
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,980	I just read "D/A" without giving any thought to the gun model. S/A guns should be carried loaded with safety on. Just practice a lot. Presentation will get easier. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

February 6, 2009, 07:58 PM	#15
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	A rather confusing thread... So I take it the pistol in question has a mechanism providing something akin to a long, SA trigger pull and an option to carry with the safety either on or off? And that it has a DA second strike capability? Something along those lines? If that's the case then I'm with the carry it chambered, cocked with the safety on crowd. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

February 7, 2009, 08:48 AM	#17
scorpion_tyr Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,326	I would not carry SA with the safety off. I'd get lot's of practice and look at different ways of disengaging the safety. Try switching the safety off as or right before you draw if possible. I would still try to do it with your shooting hand as you may not have your other hand available when you need it for a real threat. If nothing seems to work for you go look for another gun. One of the main things I look for on my guns is that I can manipulate all the features without changing my grip. __________________ “Nature intended me for the tranquil pursuits of science, by rendering them my supreme delight.” - Thomas Jefferson

February 7, 2009, 04:43 PM	#19
Kline605 Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 49	You need to get more practice period. If you can't work the safety effectively after that, get a different firearm. You can practice your techniques, including the draw, at the house with a few "dummy" rounds, but I would also suggest a professional trainer or course.

February 8, 2009, 12:34 AM	#20
G-man 26 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2008 Location: southern, CA Posts: 212	Don't go off half cocked! I had a mill pro pt145. I got rid of it because I always threw the first round in the dirt 6 feet in front if me. No amount of training could cure me of it. I understood the workings of the gun as striker fired (no hammer), and "half cocked" when the slide had been cycled. The ability to pull the trigger (DA) fully through the "cocking" and past the striker release on the second attempt was just like a...(wait for it)...Glock. So, I'm sure all the Glock cool aid fan boys will advise you to go ahead and carry with the tube full and no safety. Right? It's just like the 3.5lb trigger after all. Ok, I need to quit picking on my favorite pistol (G-26). I think you should practice until you are cured of your trouble with the safety, or convinced that you can't be. If you can not be cured of it, and you still REALLY like the gun, see if you can get it modified. An extended safety would be good. Or get a better gun for you. Thanks for the opportunity for a little humor against the Glock. LOL. __________________ "When one man speaks to another man who doesn't understand him, and when the man who's speaking no longer understands, it's metaphysics." Voltaire

February 9, 2009, 05:13 PM	#22
schnarrgj Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2001 Location: St Louis, Missouri Posts: 167	I have and carry the PT-111PRO. It is SA with a DA second strike. With practice, I have been able to draw and release the safety in one motion. It does take practice as with any action that requires muscle memory. I do not find it any more or less difficult than doing it with a 1911. It could be the size of our hands or the grip we use that differs. For me it works great.

February 10, 2009, 04:12 PM	#23
G-man 26 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2008 Location: southern, CA Posts: 212	Ok, I guess I got that one wrong. Sorry. I need to revisit the manual on the one I had, I was sure that was the terminology used. Still, don' tell the Glock boys I said I was wrong. I would not carry it without the safety on in any case. If you do, leave the round out of the chamber. If "cocked" or "half cocked", the trigger is fairly light and could cause a problem. __________________ "When one man speaks to another man who doesn't understand him, and when the man who's speaking no longer understands, it's metaphysics." Voltaire

February 10, 2009, 04:46 PM	#24
ranburr Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2006 Location: TX Posts: 1,278	The way this stryker fired pistol is set up internally, it is perfectly safe to carry without the manual safety engaged. The pistol will not fire without a deliberate and somewhat long squeeze of the trigger for the first shot. ranburr __________________ ranburr "There are no stupid questions, just stupid people asking questions".

February 10, 2009, 07:29 PM	#25
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	Safety on with my 1911. Safety off with my HKUSPC. Glock...well, you know. __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

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