inconsistency

onlybrowning · January 4, 2006, 09:40 PM

I previously loaded a 165 grain Ballistic Tip Nosler over 42.0 grains for .308. I was taking a stab at two different loads as I had only 8 bullets left and was going to the range anyway. Well needless to say the load shot about 2". So today I got some more 165's (same bullet) from Cabelaclause and loaded a 20 shot test group in 4 shot increments from 42.0 down to 40.0 in half grain increments. I was using the 42.0 as a reference that it was not good in my gun, but to be sure I ended the testing at that number. Well, to my surprise all of my gropus sucked except the 42.0! It was about .55" group! I feel as though I shot pretty consistently each time, and everything else was the same. Even the temp was close. What could this be? I am thinking an inconsistency in sizing as I have not yet found a sweet spot to the full length sizer. No matter where I set it they chanmber hard...What gives?

somerled · January 4, 2006, 10:53 PM

Scope mounting, stock bedding, a different rest or bench, maybe your shooting skills being sharper the second time, a different lot of Nosler bullets: there are are probably some more variables to consider.

onlybrowning · January 4, 2006, 11:06 PM

I feel like I was thorough in scope mounting, bedding screws, etc. I guess it could have been me, I just feel like my shooting was solid. I am a four position smallbore shooter, I guess maybe I feel like my shooting are too good to blame and that is obviously not the case. LOL.

onlybrowning · January 4, 2006, 11:08 PM

What do you think about the chambering issue? Anyone else have this problem. All of my bullets chamber hard no matter where I set the die.

Foxman · January 5, 2006, 06:34 AM

You need the Stoney point bullet seating comparator and seat them just off the rifling. I used that load with both 150 and 165 gr bullets and it worked a charm. I used .020" after trying from .030" down to .005" as it worked best for me but you have to find what your rifle likes. The stoney point sytem is the best Ive seen, as it uses a threaded case and the bullets you want to use. I always make three measurements and take a mean of the three, I have tried some of the others and they are hopelessly inaccurate. my 02 worth.

Leftoverdj · January 5, 2006, 09:16 AM

Could be a mere statistical aberration. Four shot groups aren't big enough to rely on. A rifle and load combination that shoots into 2" will sometimes plant 3-4 bullets smack on top of each other by sheer chance.

I must confess that I do early load development with five shot strings. I then take the best group and load and fire 20 rounds as four groups. Twenty shots IS enough to tell me something. Sometimes the four groups will match the first, but often they won't.

What a single four or five shot group will tell you is when it's hopeless to try that load any more. When a rifle that you know will shoot consistently under an inch with a good load sprays five shots into something over 2", it's time to try another load.

zeisloft · January 5, 2006, 10:14 AM

As far as the hard chambering goes, have you trimmed the cases?
~z

LHB1 · January 5, 2006, 09:16 PM

Do you have your sizing die bottoming FIRMLY against the shell holder? If not, you may be letting the shoulder/neck of the case remain ever so slightly too far forward to chamber easily.

TEST:
1. Resize a fired case with your current sizer die setting and try to chamber case with NO bullet or primer. If it chambers tightly, problem may be sizer die setting, go to step 2. If it chambers easily, problem may be in bullet seater setting, go to step 3.

2. Adjust the sizing die lower (bump firmly against shell holder or even file shell holder top surface if necessary to reduce thickness and let sizer die come lower on case). Then resize the SAME case and try to chamber. If the case now chambers easily, leave sizer at new setting and go to step 3. (You don't want to set the shoulder back significantly as that will increase effective headspace in the gun but size/push shoulder back just enough to allow fired cases to rechamber easily.

3. Seat bullet in SAME case (after it chambers easily without bullet) with NO powder or primer (dummy round) and try to chamber in rifle. If dummy round chambers tightly, adjust seater to seat bullet deeper and retry this step. If dummy round chambers OK, load up 10 rounds to try on next range visit, sit down, and reflect on your fine character because you probably just solved your problem.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

Leftoverdj · January 5, 2006, 10:58 PM

Try a different make of shellholder. It only takes a few thous difference in the shellholder to make chambering difficult with bottle neck cases

onlybrowning · January 6, 2006, 12:09 AM

I finally got the die adjusted correctly and the brass chambers nicely now. According to the RCBS die, You are supposed to go 1/8 to 1/4 turn further after the die contacts the shellholder. Well, 1/8 turn was not enough and 1/4 turn crushed the shoulder. Somewher in the middle of that I found the sweet spot. Needless to say the lockring on the die is very tight now

. I loaded up some rounds and I am excited to try this group again with the same charge and some others. Thank you for our help and thoughts everyone.

impact · January 7, 2006, 09:24 PM

If you are shooting a bolt gun? you don't need to size that far. I only size about 3/4 of the neck. Take great care in how you seat the bullet. I like to use a tappered stone to debur the inside case neck. I like the bullet to slide in the neck real easy with no hang ups.

The only time you should need to bump back the shoulder is when the case was fired in a semi auto. And you really should bump back the shoulder in a auto to make sure the gun goes into battery.

Also in a 308 I have had real good luck with the 168gr Sierra Match Kings. I also gave Speer Gold Match a try in 168gr and they worked real well. I only shot two groups with the Speer.

Good luck!

January 4, 2006, 09:40 PM	#1
onlybrowning Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2005 Location: Saratoga Springs, NY Posts: 275	inconsistency I previously loaded a 165 grain Ballistic Tip Nosler over 42.0 grains for .308. I was taking a stab at two different loads as I had only 8 bullets left and was going to the range anyway. Well needless to say the load shot about 2". So today I got some more 165's (same bullet) from Cabelaclause and loaded a 20 shot test group in 4 shot increments from 42.0 down to 40.0 in half grain increments. I was using the 42.0 as a reference that it was not good in my gun, but to be sure I ended the testing at that number. Well, to my surprise all of my gropus sucked except the 42.0! It was about .55" group! I feel as though I shot pretty consistently each time, and everything else was the same. Even the temp was close. What could this be? I am thinking an inconsistency in sizing as I have not yet found a sweet spot to the full length sizer. No matter where I set it they chanmber hard...What gives?

January 5, 2006, 06:34 AM	#5
Foxman Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2005 Posts: 466	You need the Stoney point bullet seating comparator and seat them just off the rifling. I used that load with both 150 and 165 gr bullets and it worked a charm. I used .020" after trying from .030" down to .005" as it worked best for me but you have to find what your rifle likes. The stoney point sytem is the best Ive seen, as it uses a threaded case and the bullets you want to use. I always make three measurements and take a mean of the three, I have tried some of the others and they are hopelessly inaccurate. my 02 worth. __________________ Better the man suspected of being a fool keep his mouth shut, than to open it and remove all doubt.

January 5, 2006, 10:14 AM	#7
zeisloft Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: Amarillo TX Posts: 419	As far as the hard chambering goes, have you trimmed the cases? ~z __________________ A scalpel can be just as effective as a broadsword Obviously, Occam was not a reloader

January 5, 2006, 09:16 PM	#8
LHB1 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,545	Re: Hard to Chamber Rounds Do you have your sizing die bottoming FIRMLY against the shell holder? If not, you may be letting the shoulder/neck of the case remain ever so slightly too far forward to chamber easily. TEST: 1. Resize a fired case with your current sizer die setting and try to chamber case with NO bullet or primer. If it chambers tightly, problem may be sizer die setting, go to step 2. If it chambers easily, problem may be in bullet seater setting, go to step 3. 2. Adjust the sizing die lower (bump firmly against shell holder or even file shell holder top surface if necessary to reduce thickness and let sizer die come lower on case). Then resize the SAME case and try to chamber. If the case now chambers easily, leave sizer at new setting and go to step 3. (You don't want to set the shoulder back significantly as that will increase effective headspace in the gun but size/push shoulder back just enough to allow fired cases to rechamber easily. 3. Seat bullet in SAME case (after it chambers easily without bullet) with NO powder or primer (dummy round) and try to chamber in rifle. If dummy round chambers tightly, adjust seater to seat bullet deeper and retry this step. If dummy round chambers OK, load up 10 rounds to try on next range visit, sit down, and reflect on your fine character because you probably just solved your problem. Good shooting and be safe. LB

January 4, 2006, 10:53 PM	#2
somerled Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: eastern Kansas Posts: 603	Scope mounting, stock bedding, a different rest or bench, maybe your shooting skills being sharper the second time, a different lot of Nosler bullets: there are are probably some more variables to consider.

January 4, 2006, 11:06 PM	#3
onlybrowning Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2005 Location: Saratoga Springs, NY Posts: 275	I feel like I was thorough in scope mounting, bedding screws, etc. I guess it could have been me, I just feel like my shooting was solid. I am a four position smallbore shooter, I guess maybe I feel like my shooting are too good to blame and that is obviously not the case. LOL.

January 4, 2006, 11:08 PM	#4
onlybrowning Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2005 Location: Saratoga Springs, NY Posts: 275	What do you think about the chambering issue? Anyone else have this problem. All of my bullets chamber hard no matter where I set the die.

January 5, 2006, 09:16 AM	#6
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Could be a mere statistical aberration. Four shot groups aren't big enough to rely on. A rifle and load combination that shoots into 2" will sometimes plant 3-4 bullets smack on top of each other by sheer chance. I must confess that I do early load development with five shot strings. I then take the best group and load and fire 20 rounds as four groups. Twenty shots IS enough to tell me something. Sometimes the four groups will match the first, but often they won't. What a single four or five shot group will tell you is when it's hopeless to try that load any more. When a rifle that you know will shoot consistently under an inch with a good load sprays five shots into something over 2", it's time to try another load.

January 5, 2006, 10:58 PM	#9
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Try a different make of shellholder. It only takes a few thous difference in the shellholder to make chambering difficult with bottle neck cases

January 6, 2006, 12:09 AM	#10
onlybrowning Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2005 Location: Saratoga Springs, NY Posts: 275	I finally got the die adjusted correctly and the brass chambers nicely now. According to the RCBS die, You are supposed to go 1/8 to 1/4 turn further after the die contacts the shellholder. Well, 1/8 turn was not enough and 1/4 turn crushed the shoulder. Somewher in the middle of that I found the sweet spot. Needless to say the lockring on the die is very tight now . I loaded up some rounds and I am excited to try this group again with the same charge and some others. Thank you for our help and thoughts everyone.

January 7, 2006, 09:24 PM	#11
impact Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: the great state of Texas Posts: 854	If you are shooting a bolt gun? you don't need to size that far. I only size about 3/4 of the neck. Take great care in how you seat the bullet. I like to use a tappered stone to debur the inside case neck. I like the bullet to slide in the neck real easy with no hang ups. The only time you should need to bump back the shoulder is when the case was fired in a semi auto. And you really should bump back the shoulder in a auto to make sure the gun goes into battery. Also in a 308 I have had real good luck with the 168gr Sierra Match Kings. I also gave Speer Gold Match a try in 168gr and they worked real well. I only shot two groups with the Speer. Good luck!