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October 27, 2011, 10:04 PM | #1 |
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Whats your opinion on loading a round directly into the chamber on a Beretta 92A1
Hello my fellow Firing Liners. I have heard mixed opinions about how loading a round directly into a chamber of a 92A1 can ruin the extractor. On the Beretta website they boast that you can load a single round and fire the gun without the magazine inserted. Many people I talk to say that doing that can damage the extractor. Any thoughts?
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October 27, 2011, 10:10 PM | #2 |
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Any snapcap or cartridge should always be loaded from the magazine. Putting a snapcap or cartridge in the chamber by hand will force the extractor to go around the base of the snapcap or cartridge. This puts extra stress on the extractor. Repeated practice may damage or break the extractor of any handgun. The same would be true for a rifle with Controlled Round Feed.
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October 27, 2011, 10:19 PM | #3 |
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I have never seen an autoloader damaged by doing this.
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October 27, 2011, 10:37 PM | #4 |
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The instruction manual for my PX4 says this is an acceptable practice. I know its a different model, but it seems Beretta says its ok to do.
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October 27, 2011, 11:20 PM | #5 |
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Shouldn't hurt a Beretta considering it's not unusual to hear of 100,000+ rounds from one of these pistols if taken care of. Won't hurt a thing.
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October 27, 2011, 11:35 PM | #6 |
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Mel Gibson did it in Lethal Melvin.
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October 28, 2011, 12:06 AM | #7 |
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ive done it and never cared in any autoloader.
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October 28, 2011, 05:52 AM | #8 |
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This is hard to do on a Beretta, but what I do on a couple of my other pistols, when I load one directly into a chamber, is press hard on the back end of the extractor with the tip of my thumb to pivot the front end clear of (or at least take some of the pressure off of) the cartridge rim as I slowly close the slide.
I used to load snap caps from the magazine, but stopped doing that after a well-used snap cap, with a bit of a burr on the rim that I hadn't noticed, gouged a groove into my brand-new magazine's plastic follower one day. I always load them directly into the chamber now. I'm pretty sure the Beretta 92A1 manual does say that it's okay to load directly into the chamber though. |
October 28, 2011, 06:49 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
I'm confused here. |
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October 28, 2011, 07:18 AM | #10 |
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The Manual for the 92A1 does say you can load a round directly into the chamber. It just doesn't say that the extractor will not be damaged by doing so.
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October 28, 2011, 07:32 AM | #11 |
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Marquezj16,
When a snapcap or cartridge is loaded from a magazine, the extractor is not forced over the base. When the slide moves the snapcap or cartridge forward from the magazine, the cartridge base is already behind of the extractor. The snapcap or cartridge slides into position from the bottom of the slide, and the extractor is not forced to go around the base. |
October 28, 2011, 07:38 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
The method your thinking of is push round feeding. Instead of the rim slipping under the extractor the round is pushed directly into the chamber unsupported and the extractor by design jumps over the rim. This method is common in long guns. I would imagine its more common in long guns over pistols because they tend to use stronger action springs and/or manually cycle. |
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October 28, 2011, 08:44 AM | #13 | |
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Guys, arguing about this is pointless.
When all else fails...RTFM. From page 28 of the Beretta 92A1 Pistol Manual: Quote:
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October 28, 2011, 09:15 AM | #14 |
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Since you asked my opinon---I think it's fine. I don't know why you'd do it, but it should be fine. The 92 is an extremely durable platform.
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October 28, 2011, 09:25 AM | #15 |
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On some guns this can damage the extractor. The Beretta on the other hand is designed to be able to load it this way. It's actually listed as one of the features of the open barrel design. I do it often (sometimes just want that 1 last round before leaving the range for the 'can that got away'. Do it without worries GA, You have chosen a fine gun.
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October 28, 2011, 09:59 AM | #16 |
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Why would one do this when inserting a magazine even with 1 round in it and load the chamber???
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October 28, 2011, 10:13 AM | #17 |
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Magazines already in, action is back, you just want 1 more round. I do it often enough.
Or other answer, because with a Beretta you can. Should have posted this blurb before: Open Slide Design Open top slide virtually eliminates jamming and stove piping. Allows the user to load and chamber one cartridge at a time should the magazine be lost or damaged. The pistols were designed so that the extractor would not be damaged by direct chamber loading. (from 92FS specifications)
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597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time! Last edited by pgdion; October 28, 2011 at 10:21 AM. |
October 28, 2011, 10:26 AM | #18 |
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Discern - oh, got it. My brain functions funny early in the morning. lol
After I read your post, I was thinking (not clearly though) that you meant the extractor is not in front of the case rim when loading from a magazine. Therefore, ejection would be impossible. I've had my first cup of coffee now and my brain is semi-functional. |
October 28, 2011, 01:45 PM | #19 |
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Most firearms it's considered bad practice because it can weaken the extractor. Beretta boast about the ability of the M9/92FS being able to do this. One special operator drill had soldiers grabbing magazines from other firearms and loading one into the M9 at a time while running the course.
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October 28, 2011, 02:06 PM | #20 |
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The original question said, "What's your opinion." So while the manual is relevant to the conversation, it's MILES from the bottom line and final word. Afterall, almost every owner's manual warns you to NEVER use handloaded or reload ammunition, and that literally means even less to me than does a comment in a TFL thread from a 1-post count new member. (in other words, the owner's manual ideas and thoughts are merely fluff, after the fact, and don't mean much in my world)
Here's MY OPINION: On handguns with an external extractor that pivots on a point (such as the Beretta), it's not a huge deal and isn't likely to damage the handgun or it's extractor. Just the same, I do NOT do it. On handguns with an internal extractor (most 1911 pistols) or lesser price handguns that don't have backing by a major manufacturer, it's definitely not a kind thing to do to the handgun and constant, repeated examples of it may indeed ruin the operation of the extractor and the pistol itself. On a 1911, it's a good way to take a proper extractor out of tune. On cheaper guns, it's a good way to chip, crack or break an extractor. On ANY handgun, you are also slamming the slide forward so that it violently hits when it closes. This isn't a friendly thing to do to any handgun's slide or breech face, and it may even be a little bit dangerous when you consider that you are using full spring force and energy to slam a large mass RIGHT down on top of a loaded round with a live primer right in the dead center of it. When a pistol drags a loaded round from a magazine, it absolutely slows down the velocity and violent nature of the slide closing. It also (as explained above) slides a loaded round up and UNDER the extractor, exactly as it was designed. And for the few of us who handload everything we shoot, it's just a wee bit kinder to the rim on that particular piece of brass. If I bought a brand new Beretta 92A1 and my buddy took it out of the box and slammed the slide home with no magazine on a loaded round, I would NOT be concerned that the service life of my pistol had been compromised. I doubt it would matter either way. Even so, it's a practice that I will not undertake unless I'm in a high-stress situation and it's the quickest, easiest or best way to make the pistol run again. I don't personally recommend that anyone get in to the habit of ever doing it. It's a risk-reward thing... what do you risk for what little you gain?
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October 28, 2011, 02:59 PM | #21 |
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My opinion?
It may not hurt some guns; it probably will hurt others. Therefore, if you will only own one of the guns that it theoretically won't harm, I guess it may not be a big deal. But, if you think you might own other models of handgun as time goes by, I'd say it's a lousy habit pattern to develop. |
October 28, 2011, 04:50 PM | #22 |
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My opinion is that the people who design and build the gun often know more about it than people who post on the internet without qualifications or first-hand knowledge.
Please note that the above comment does not refer to folk like Sevens who have demonstrated extensive knowledge of the subject. In fact, I highly suspect that, if you were to compare Sevens's comments to the recommendations in the manuals of firearms from major manufacturers, you would find a high correlation between the design features he mentions and manufacturer recommendations. Beretta has been in the firearm business since the 16th century, IIRC, so methinks they have learned a thing or two. Their design is such that a cartridge can be directly loaded without damage to the extractor, according to both them and Sevens. To take a couple of common examples, Glocks and 1911s are two pistols that risk damage by the practice, and the Glock manual and, I would rather expect, most if not all 1911 manuals recommend against it. Upshot: If you don't have the extensive knowledge needed to make the choice, following the recommendation of the manual is probably second safest, after not doing it in any pistol. |
October 28, 2011, 07:49 PM | #23 |
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beretta mentions this as a way of explaining or convincing of the advantages of their open slide design. nothing more.
you will note that on almost all other pistols it is harder to insert a round directly in the chamber because the chamber is not as easily accessible. the extractor on the beretta 90 series is not really particularly unique or has some special design feature that allows this as compared to most other external extractors designs but the chamber,compared to most others,is easier to load manually,especially in a stressful situation with fumbling fingers. every single extractor i have ever seen on any pistol that i can recall,has a rounded or slanted front edge on the claw to help go around the case rim,..in case it has to. it doesn't mean it should be your prefered or normal method. you can do it 100 times or 1000 and nothing can happen but on the very next try(or possibly the very first time you do it) it's possible you may chip or deform the claw. you may have problems after that. on an external extractor you won't loose extractor spring tension though but on an internal design you might and probably will.there are differently designed internal extractors though,some may be much more prone than others. the quality control,type of steel and form of manufacture of the extractor can play a big role. now,if beretta made the extractor out of unobtanium from the planet kripton,that would be different but until beretta explains exactly why their extractors are so special,all they're trying to tell you is the advantage of having an open slide design. overall it is bad juju on any pistol,whether it has internal or external extractors, and some of you older members on here that love those pistols with internal extractors(you know the pistols i'm talking about) will want to knock you on the head if you do that on one of theirs. ever heard of the term "tuning the extractor"? |
October 28, 2011, 11:16 PM | #24 |
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. All good opinions. I just got back from a comedy show in Atlantic City. One of the comedians had a joke. As a gay person would say, "opinions are like *******s, f?@k them." HA, no ,really, thanks for the opinions. I definitely wont make it a regular practice, but I just want to know if I should worry about ruining my gun by doing something the manual suggests.
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October 29, 2011, 11:44 AM | #25 |
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during navy small arms training we were taught not to do this with the M9, same basic gun as the 92. I dont think they ever gave a specific reason for it though more than likely it's like all the other navy stuff that doesn't make sense, "because that's the way we've always done things" is par for the course even with firearms training.
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