Looking for info on 2 old rifles (#1)

bangbangshootshoot · April 22, 2009, 06:20 PM

I recently acquired these 2 rifles & wanted to see if anyone may have some insight to share. The owner had zero info on them.
Here are a few measurements of the 1st set:
-The rifle measures 51-1/2" in length
-The barrel measures 34-1/4"
-Inside diameter measures @19mm at the muzzle & @20mm at the loading chamber.
-Has "US" stamped on the butt of the stock

Arquebus · April 24, 2009, 01:37 PM

Looks like a breech-loading conversion of a CW-era musket. If you can post a picture of the lock-side of the gun that would help in making an ID.

Jim Watson · April 24, 2009, 02:52 PM

Looks like a Zulu.
Conversion of a muzzleloading musket to a breechloading shotgun for sale to African or other tribesman.

Interesting that it is marked US, most are French or other European.

bangbangshootshoot · April 24, 2009, 02:59 PM

Here's 2 more pics, hope they help.

Jim Watson · April 24, 2009, 03:18 PM

I believe it IS French, back action sidelocks were uncommon on American guns. Which leaves the question of why there is a US on the stock.

SDC · April 24, 2009, 03:53 PM

They appear to be one of the versions of the French M1867 "Tabatiere" ("snuff-box") conversions of their earlier percussion muzzle-loaders; these were essentially the French version of the English Snider rifle, meant as a replacement for the muzzle-loaders while the French were still converting (temporarily) to their Gras 1874 bolt-action single-shots. They were chambered for a 17.5x35mmR cartridge (some references say 18x35mmR) that is long obsolete.

Arquebus · April 24, 2009, 05:40 PM

Yep, I concur with the others, French or possibly Belgian. Looks like it's been 'sporterized' by having the forestock cut back......again, a common occurence with these ols surplus muskets.

James K · April 26, 2009, 09:44 PM

The conversion was done in Belgium, since those are Liege proofs on the breech block. The musket was undoubtedly European, but any further info would be on the lock plate if it has not been removed.

After the end of the muzzle loader era, most countries tried to convert their old muskets and rifle muskets to breech loaders, using a variety of systems. Muskets not considered suitable for conversion and use by the armed forces were dumped on the market at fire sale prices, and many shops in places like Liege did the conversions and then again dumped the guns in places like Africa as "trade" guns. In the process, the old guns were "sporterized" by removing part of the foreend.

The guns are interesting, and undoubtedly would have quite a tale to tell if they could speak. However, they have little monetary value.

Jim

April 24, 2009, 01:37 PM	#2
Arquebus Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2008 Location: Inland NW Posts: 116	Looks like a breech-loading conversion of a CW-era musket. If you can post a picture of the lock-side of the gun that would help in making an ID. __________________ "For a man, be he ever so much resolved to do his duty as a parent, can't be flogging his children all day....." The Memoirs of Barry Lyndon, Esq. (William Thackeray).

April 24, 2009, 03:53 PM	#6
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	They appear to be one of the versions of the French M1867 "Tabatiere" ("snuff-box") conversions of their earlier percussion muzzle-loaders; these were essentially the French version of the English Snider rifle, meant as a replacement for the muzzle-loaders while the French were still converting (temporarily) to their Gras 1874 bolt-action single-shots. They were chambered for a 17.5x35mmR cartridge (some references say 18x35mmR) that is long obsolete. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

April 24, 2009, 05:40 PM	#7
Arquebus Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2008 Location: Inland NW Posts: 116	Yep, I concur with the others, French or possibly Belgian. Looks like it's been 'sporterized' by having the forestock cut back......again, a common occurence with these ols surplus muskets. __________________ "For a man, be he ever so much resolved to do his duty as a parent, can't be flogging his children all day....." The Memoirs of Barry Lyndon, Esq. (William Thackeray).

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April 24, 2009, 02:52 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	Looks like a Zulu. Conversion of a muzzleloading musket to a breechloading shotgun for sale to African or other tribesman. Interesting that it is marked US, most are French or other European.

April 24, 2009, 03:18 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	I believe it IS French, back action sidelocks were uncommon on American guns. Which leaves the question of why there is a US on the stock.

April 26, 2009, 09:44 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The conversion was done in Belgium, since those are Liege proofs on the breech block. The musket was undoubtedly European, but any further info would be on the lock plate if it has not been removed. After the end of the muzzle loader era, most countries tried to convert their old muskets and rifle muskets to breech loaders, using a variety of systems. Muskets not considered suitable for conversion and use by the armed forces were dumped on the market at fire sale prices, and many shops in places like Liege did the conversions and then again dumped the guns in places like Africa as "trade" guns. In the process, the old guns were "sporterized" by removing part of the foreend. The guns are interesting, and undoubtedly would have quite a tale to tell if they could speak. However, they have little monetary value. Jim