Trust your powder measure? - Page 2

Bart B. · December 30, 2012, 07:52 PM

If you can't shoot your rifle's ammo into groups under 1/3 inch all the time at 100 yards with metered powder charges holding a 3/10ths grain spread, forget the powder charge. Go find what's broken, or at least bent way out of shape on the performance curve, then fix that. That powder charge parameter is just fine.

tobnpr · December 30, 2012, 09:30 PM

Three-tenths won't cause enough velocity spread to affect drop at 1000 yards? Worried about nothin? So why all the hype about $3,000 digital scales and weighing charges to a nanograin? (yeah, i made that up...)

reynolds357 · December 30, 2012, 09:35 PM

I load pistol by volume and rifle by weight. I dont even throw a charge for a .30-30 lever action by volume.

Jimro · December 30, 2012, 10:00 PM

3/10ths of a grain has about the same effect on muzzle velocity at a 10 degree change in temperature (F not C).

If you do an OCW load workup, it will identify a load where +/- .3 grains is nothing.

Jimro

mehavey · December 30, 2012, 10:10 PM

Sorry guys, but I establish weight/volume for the loading session, and then load all by Volume. (Harrells Culver and Schutzen measures)

Today was pistol/rifle 357 in a`92 Winchester using and 160gr MBW LeadFNGC over V-N110/15.0gr by volume ([email protected]). It varies at most ±0.1 and averages ±0.05 (a half a tenth_

As far as velocity variance, today's was 1,777fps ± 3 (Oehler35)

~~~~~~

As others have noted, absolutely consistent throwing technique is the key, be it ball or extruded.
In my case: handle UP sharp; DOWN sharp; sharp single TAP of that handle.

I load an entire 50-rnd block at once;
Visually examine all powder levels at once;
Seat all bullets at once.

SIGSHR · December 30, 2012, 10:25 PM

Dean Grenell wrote that he adjusted his powder measures-for pistol loads-so 10 thrown charges weighed exactly 10X the charge he wanted. That has worked for me.

solocam72 · December 31, 2012, 12:00 AM

I have a redding 3-BR and I fully trust it with spherical powders (all I use it for) I personally don't trust ANY powder measure for extruded powders and never will. I have the time and patience to sit down and weigh out 20 individual charges on my RCBS 10-10 beam scale for my rifles, I do not load large quantities of rifle at a time. Now pistol on the other hand is a different story, I set the redding and check weigh several charges then weigh about every 10th charge to make sure it is throwing the same, havnt had a problem to date with this method

Sport45 · December 31, 2012, 05:10 AM

I trust all of mine once they're set, but I have found each are better with some powders than others.

The RCBS Quick Change does the best job with Universal and Unique at 6gr and less. The rifle insert does well with everything I've tried.

The Lee PPM does very well with stick powders.

The Redding 3 meters ball powders great and stick powders well. I use it more than the others.

The Lyman 55 does everything well except for flake and very fine ball powders. But it's pretty old and there's more clearance between the frame and rotor than there should be...

hounddawg · December 31, 2012, 05:31 AM

From my experience even the cheapest powder throw will work well with flake or ball. My Hornady and Lee both throw W231 and TAC to .1 grain

Stick is a different story,neither the Lee or the Hornady gave me consistent throws. I used hand dippers and was lucky to get plus or minus 3 tenths so I made my dippers on the low side and trickled to weight before getting a RCBS Chargemaster. I calibrate it before use then check it against a balance beam every ten or so loads so far after using it for about a month and maybe 300 loads it has always been dead on. I might just be nit picky but I like my charges exact for my rifle, it's easy to do even using dippers and trickler so why not. I also check concentricity and clean primer pockets but when I go to the line I know the issue is my technique not my equipment when I have a bad group so I concentrate can on that.

TheNatureBoy · December 31, 2012, 07:13 AM

Too anal to trust a powder measure thingy. Still spooning and checking every 5 rounds.

Bart B. · December 31, 2012, 08:02 AM

3/10ths grain spread of extruded powder's history from being metered (not weighed) into .308/7.62 cases in high speed loading machinery:

Best lots of M118 match ammo with IMR4895 tested at 600 yards with many dozens of shots per test group; mean radius about 1.8 inch, extreme spread about 5.5 inches.

Most lots of Federal Gold Medal Match using IMR4064 under Sierra 1689's, properly tested at 600 yards in M1 and M14 match grade semiautos; 4 inch groups at 600 yards.

1992 Palma Match ammo loaded on two Dillon 1050's with IMR4895 under Sierra 155's, 3 inch accuracy at 600 yards, under 10 inch accuracy at 1000.

Regarding charge weight spread vs. muzzle velocity, here's what one can deduce from loading manual data and ballistic software......

A 50 fps spread in muzzle velocity from a .308 Win. case will cause a vertical shot stringing from different amounts of bullet drop at 100 yards of about 1/10th inch, at 200 yards a tiny bit over 2/10ths inch. At 600 yards, it'll be about 4.5 inches, at 1000 yards, about 18 inches.

IMR4064 in .308 Win. cases has about 5 fps of average velocity change for each 1/10th grain change in charge weight. With IMR4895, a 1/10th grain charge weight change has about an 8 fps change in muzzle velocity average.

So, if your muzzle velocity spread is 30 fps with exact charge weights of one of these extruded powders, there's something besides the powder charge weight spread of zero that's causing it. Primers? Case neck tension? Weak firing pin impact? How hard you hold the rifle into your shoulder as you shoot bullets through chronograph screens? Or, how much of that spread's caused by the variables in each exact charge weights amounts of propellants, deterrants, stabilizers, decoppering agents, flash reducers, wear reduction and other additives? There's no way two identical charge weights will produce the same pressure curve shapes and dimensions even if everything else has zero spread in performance.

rajbcpa · December 31, 2012, 08:51 AM

I use three powder measures; an RCBS, a Hornady and a Dillon.....

Some measures perform better with certain powders....

If I remember correctly, neither the RCBS and Hornady measures came from the factory with the powder tent and the addition of these optional pieces in each powder holding bin made a significant improvement in consistent powder drops.

The Dillon came with a tent from the factory and, generally, it is the most consistent measure of all three.

The other IMPORTANT issue is proper cleaning. Hornady and RCBS powder measures are shipped from the factory with a heavy gunk on the parts to protect them while they are in inventory. You must take the measure completely apart and clean all the factory goo off. ...otherwise, the measures will not throw consistent charges.

hounddawg · December 31, 2012, 08:58 AM

not arguing your 3/10ths point Bart, I have ran enough Varget, 4895, and RL10 across my chrono doing load testing to see that for myself. Just saying I like to go dead on with my charges just cause it makes me feel better to do so.

dickttx · December 31, 2012, 07:43 PM

My two Lee Pro Auto Disks are so consistent they are boring. However, I still take advantage of all the check points available on every cartridge I run through the loader.

OEF-Vet · December 31, 2012, 08:23 PM

I like some others have posted use the dump and trickle method. I am not a production reloader I go for as close to perfect as I can for the rifles. Now when I load for the pistols I set up my powder measure and weigh every 3rd dump.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

Jimro · January 1, 2013, 01:01 PM

OEF-Vet,

I used to do the same thing you do, for the same reasons, I wanted everything as consistent as possible.

How do you account for weight differences caused by water content differences? Once you open that powder canister the water content (and even the nitrogen content) starts changing.

I left some Power Pro 2000 MR exposed to air for three weeks and measured the weight of the volumetric charge. It was "heavy" one grain (which is a lot for a 223 load). Obviously the powder had to gain water content, even though the total energy content of that volumetric charge is exactly the same as the powder stored in a supposedly dry canister.

Jimro

OEF-Vet · January 1, 2013, 03:22 PM

Jimro

Not very scientific but I put the powder in the measure and let it "stabilize" while I sort my brass by weight, prime and set up my dies. My thought is the humidity in my loading room won't change in the couple of hours I'm at the bench.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

December 30, 2012, 10:00 PM	#29
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	3/10ths of a grain has about the same effect on muzzle velocity at a 10 degree change in temperature (F not C). If you do an OCW load workup, it will identify a load where +/- .3 grains is nothing. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 30, 2012, 10:10 PM	#30
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	Sorry guys, but I establish weight/volume for the loading session, and then load all by Volume. (Harrells Culver and Schutzen measures) Today was pistol/rifle 357 in a`92 Winchester using and 160gr MBW LeadFNGC over V-N110/15.0gr by volume ([email protected]). It varies at most ±0.1 and averages ±0.05 (a half a tenth_ As far as velocity variance, today's was 1,777fps ± 3 (Oehler35) ~~~~~~ As others have noted, absolutely consistent throwing technique is the key, be it ball or extruded. In my case: handle UP sharp; DOWN sharp; sharp single TAP of that handle. I load an entire 50-rnd block at once; Visually examine all powder levels at once; Seat all bullets at once. Last edited by mehavey; December 30, 2012 at 11:44 PM.

December 31, 2012, 05:10 AM	#33
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I trust all of mine once they're set, but I have found each are better with some powders than others. The RCBS Quick Change does the best job with Universal and Unique at 6gr and less. The rifle insert does well with everything I've tried. The Lee PPM does very well with stick powders. The Redding 3 meters ball powders great and stick powders well. I use it more than the others. The Lyman 55 does everything well except for flake and very fine ball powders. But it's pretty old and there's more clearance between the frame and rotor than there should be... __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

December 31, 2012, 05:31 AM	#34
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	From my experience even the cheapest powder throw will work well with flake or ball. My Hornady and Lee both throw W231 and TAC to .1 grain Stick is a different story,neither the Lee or the Hornady gave me consistent throws. I used hand dippers and was lucky to get plus or minus 3 tenths so I made my dippers on the low side and trickled to weight before getting a RCBS Chargemaster. I calibrate it before use then check it against a balance beam every ten or so loads so far after using it for about a month and maybe 300 loads it has always been dead on. I might just be nit picky but I like my charges exact for my rifle, it's easy to do even using dippers and trickler so why not. I also check concentricity and clean primer pockets but when I go to the line I know the issue is my technique not my equipment when I have a bad group so I concentrate can on that. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; December 31, 2012 at 06:03 AM.

December 31, 2012, 08:02 AM	#36
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	3/10ths grain spread of extruded powder's history from being metered (not weighed) into .308/7.62 cases in high speed loading machinery: Best lots of M118 match ammo with IMR4895 tested at 600 yards with many dozens of shots per test group; mean radius about 1.8 inch, extreme spread about 5.5 inches. Most lots of Federal Gold Medal Match using IMR4064 under Sierra 1689's, properly tested at 600 yards in M1 and M14 match grade semiautos; 4 inch groups at 600 yards. 1992 Palma Match ammo loaded on two Dillon 1050's with IMR4895 under Sierra 155's, 3 inch accuracy at 600 yards, under 10 inch accuracy at 1000. Regarding charge weight spread vs. muzzle velocity, here's what one can deduce from loading manual data and ballistic software...... A 50 fps spread in muzzle velocity from a .308 Win. case will cause a vertical shot stringing from different amounts of bullet drop at 100 yards of about 1/10th inch, at 200 yards a tiny bit over 2/10ths inch. At 600 yards, it'll be about 4.5 inches, at 1000 yards, about 18 inches. IMR4064 in .308 Win. cases has about 5 fps of average velocity change for each 1/10th grain change in charge weight. With IMR4895, a 1/10th grain charge weight change has about an 8 fps change in muzzle velocity average. So, if your muzzle velocity spread is 30 fps with exact charge weights of one of these extruded powders, there's something besides the powder charge weight spread of zero that's causing it. Primers? Case neck tension? Weak firing pin impact? How hard you hold the rifle into your shoulder as you shoot bullets through chronograph screens? Or, how much of that spread's caused by the variables in each exact charge weights amounts of propellants, deterrants, stabilizers, decoppering agents, flash reducers, wear reduction and other additives? There's no way two identical charge weights will produce the same pressure curve shapes and dimensions even if everything else has zero spread in performance. Last edited by Bart B.; December 31, 2012 at 09:09 AM.

December 30, 2012, 07:52 PM	#26
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	If you can't shoot your rifle's ammo into groups under 1/3 inch all the time at 100 yards with metered powder charges holding a 3/10ths grain spread, forget the powder charge. Go find what's broken, or at least bent way out of shape on the performance curve, then fix that. That powder charge parameter is just fine.

December 30, 2012, 09:30 PM	#27
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Three-tenths won't cause enough velocity spread to affect drop at 1000 yards? Worried about nothin? So why all the hype about $3,000 digital scales and weighing charges to a nanograin? (yeah, i made that up...)

December 30, 2012, 09:35 PM	#28
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I load pistol by volume and rifle by weight. I dont even throw a charge for a .30-30 lever action by volume.

December 30, 2012, 10:25 PM	#31
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Dean Grenell wrote that he adjusted his powder measures-for pistol loads-so 10 thrown charges weighed exactly 10X the charge he wanted. That has worked for me.

December 31, 2012, 12:00 AM	#32
solocam72 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2012 Location: Great Northwest Posts: 222	I have a redding 3-BR and I fully trust it with spherical powders (all I use it for) I personally don't trust ANY powder measure for extruded powders and never will. I have the time and patience to sit down and weigh out 20 individual charges on my RCBS 10-10 beam scale for my rifles, I do not load large quantities of rifle at a time. Now pistol on the other hand is a different story, I set the redding and check weigh several charges then weigh about every 10th charge to make sure it is throwing the same, havnt had a problem to date with this method

December 31, 2012, 07:13 AM	#35
TheNatureBoy Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Posts: 1,204	Too anal to trust a powder measure thingy. Still spooning and checking every 5 rounds.

December 31, 2012, 08:51 AM	#37
rajbcpa Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2012 Posts: 321	I use three powder measures; an RCBS, a Hornady and a Dillon..... Some measures perform better with certain powders.... If I remember correctly, neither the RCBS and Hornady measures came from the factory with the powder tent and the addition of these optional pieces in each powder holding bin made a significant improvement in consistent powder drops. The Dillon came with a tent from the factory and, generally, it is the most consistent measure of all three. The other IMPORTANT issue is proper cleaning. Hornady and RCBS powder measures are shipped from the factory with a heavy gunk on the parts to protect them while they are in inventory. You must take the measure completely apart and clean all the factory goo off. ...otherwise, the measures will not throw consistent charges.

December 31, 2012, 08:58 AM	#38
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	not arguing your 3/10ths point Bart, I have ran enough Varget, 4895, and RL10 across my chrono doing load testing to see that for myself. Just saying I like to go dead on with my charges just cause it makes me feel better to do so. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; December 31, 2012 at 09:10 AM.

December 31, 2012, 07:43 PM	#39
dickttx Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Location: Fort Worth Posts: 500	My two Lee Pro Auto Disks are so consistent they are boring. However, I still take advantage of all the check points available on every cartridge I run through the loader. __________________ Education teaches you the rules, experience teaches you the exceptions (Plagiarized from Claude Clay)

December 31, 2012, 08:23 PM	#40
OEF-Vet Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2011 Location: Backwoods, PA Posts: 284	I like some others have posted use the dump and trickle method. I am not a production reloader I go for as close to perfect as I can for the rifles. Now when I load for the pistols I set up my powder measure and weigh every 3rd dump. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

January 1, 2013, 01:01 PM	#41
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	OEF-Vet, I used to do the same thing you do, for the same reasons, I wanted everything as consistent as possible. How do you account for weight differences caused by water content differences? Once you open that powder canister the water content (and even the nitrogen content) starts changing. I left some Power Pro 2000 MR exposed to air for three weeks and measured the weight of the volumetric charge. It was "heavy" one grain (which is a lot for a 223 load). Obviously the powder had to gain water content, even though the total energy content of that volumetric charge is exactly the same as the powder stored in a supposedly dry canister. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

January 1, 2013, 03:22 PM	#42
OEF-Vet Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2011 Location: Backwoods, PA Posts: 284	Jimro Not very scientific but I put the powder in the measure and let it "stabilize" while I sort my brass by weight, prime and set up my dies. My thought is the humidity in my loading room won't change in the couple of hours I'm at the bench. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2