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Old October 6, 2009, 09:10 PM   #51
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Nnobby45,

That link is very interesting. Are you currently a member?? Although $85 a year seems a little steep, it would be well worth it if you ever were involved in a shooting. Thanks for the information! ..............
Yes, I am a member. The three tapes alone (that come with membership) debunk a lot of commonly believed fallacies that can land you in jail.

Makes it easy to pick out those who know what they're talking about---and those who might not.

There are good lawyers who don't necessarily believe in clamming up, demanding a lawyer, saying nothing, and doing an excellent imitation of a guilty criminal. Nor do they believe in blabbing away and incriminating yourself.
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Old October 6, 2009, 09:17 PM   #52
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfacade
This is a link that is relevant to this discussion. It is somewhat lengthly but very informative. If your willing watch part 2 as this is a police officer saying the same thing.
See post #26.
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Old October 8, 2009, 09:17 AM   #53
Lee Lapin
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In the days before Enhanced 9-1-1, I would have said that one component of your script should be your physical address and phone number, typed or printed clearly and affixed to or near the phone in a place it couldn't be obscured.

Once upon a time in the past I worked dispatch for a short while, and I'll never forget the late-night call where the caller roared "THERE'S A FIRE OUT HERE!!" and slammed the phone receiver back into the cradle.

Adrenaline makes people do funny things, ya know? We were supported by a volunteer fire department, and since I wasn't sure how best to respond to that call, I phoned the chief at home and asked him. He told me to page everyone to the fire department and have them stand by, that if there really was a fire we'd find out where it was sooner or later.

I did, and we did, and I was able to dispatch the trucks after a few precious minutes dribbled by.

If you live in a place that lacks enhanced 9-1-1 (are there still such places in the USA?) then it would still be a good idea. And even if you have it, it might not hurt. It might not be you or a family member who has to call it in, and it might be good to be able to verify the address and phone number if needed. And someone might forget their own address or phone number under pressure as well.

Usually a dispatcher will elecit the information they need from you, they're trained to do that. The thing is to keep control of yourself, and be clear about what you're saying. And if you were involved in a defensive shooting, it's better IMO to say things like "There's been a shooting at 123 A Street, I need police, paramedics and an ambulance." It's a good idea to ID yourself as the homeowner/good guy as well, and give a description of what you look like and what you're wearing.

And have your hands empty when the LEOs show up...

At that point, the best training I've ever gotten on the subject came from the lecture noted at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...2_StudyDay.htm . If you need an ATSA-speak dictionary to get through the notes, I posted one at http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....5&postcount=10 .

DW and I are also members of USCCA, and recommend it.

FWIW,

lpl
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Old October 8, 2009, 05:24 PM   #54
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If your suspicious of the police... they'll probably be suspicious of you... No matter what you say or dont say... they will figure out what happened. If you did nothing wrong... you did nothing wrong. NEVER EVER PANIC !!!! EVER. If you made a mistake.. you made a mistake... If your not sure about something?... your not sure about something. Above all... MAKE SURE YOUR FAMILY IS OK.
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Old October 9, 2009, 09:00 AM   #55
Al Norris
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The first bit of good advice was here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Personally, I'll go along with what Massad Ayoob recommends and has taught me in his LFI-I class and be prepared to say the following:

1. That person attacked me.
2. I will sign a complaint.
3. There is evidence (pointing to evidence).
4. There are witnesses (pointing to witnesses).
5. I won't say anything more now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I've talked with my lawyer.

That identifies me as the victim, helps assure that evidence and witnesses aren't overlooked and invokes my right to thereafter remain silent.
I agree with this almost 100%, for any circumstance outside of a home invasion. The only thing I would add, is to be the first to call 911. That establishes your credibility right away.

Here, we are talking specifically about a home invasion scenario. Therefore the above needs to be modified.

Since most States do recognize that a homeowner/occupant has a right to defend hearth and home, you established that by calling 911 and identifying yourself, right? - You did stay on the phone until the police have arrived, didn't you?

1. You called 911 to report a break-in.
2. You identified yourself (and family) as the owner/occupant of the home.
3. You stayed on the phone until the police told you to hang up.
4. At the moment the police arrived, you holstered your firearm or put it down and backed away from it, unless you are holding the suspect at gunpoint - which is something that you should have told the 911 operator and made sure that the operator has relayed that information to the responders.
4a. If you are holding a suspect at gunpoint and the responder tells you to drop your weapon... Drop The Damn Thing! Any other move will get you shot.
5. Give a very brief account of what happened, when asked by the officer.
6. After that, tell the officer (should they persist in asking questions) that you need to calm down and you will be glad to talk to them tomorrow (making sure you talk to an attorney first).

Home invasions are a completely different thing than a defense on the street, which is what Mr. Ayoob is addressing. Therefore the response is going to be somewhat different. Some facts will already be in evidence, that won't be there in a street confrontation.

The aftermath is what we are addressing, not what is going on during the actual break-in. You want to do a one-man house-clearing? That be on you and you alone.
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Old October 9, 2009, 10:19 AM   #56
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I hope this is okay to post here. I received this article from Michael potter ([email protected]) awhile ago. Its quite the reading. Explains what to do AFTER a self defense shooting...

Thought i would share with you all too.....
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Old October 9, 2009, 11:37 AM   #57
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My name is this and I wish to speak to a with a lawyer. Why, bacause everything you say will be incorrect. See affects of tachypshia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachypsychia
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Old October 9, 2009, 03:37 PM   #58
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38Super, your approach is guaranteed to get you hauled off to jail, while the police sort things out. Granted that this might happen anyway, but why force that outcome?

First and foremost, the police are looking for the victim(s), so you want to identify yourself as such. Immediately.
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Old October 10, 2009, 08:21 AM   #59
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I would prefer going to jail than changing my statement. After a gunfight, you will forget many vital details including time and distance.

You do not want to alter your statement, as it will “imply” that you were lying.

Many people create unnecessarily hassle for themselves due to their training. I have been to many shootings, and you hear this all so often. From a witness, I heard “die mother foocker” and then 3 shots rang out.

Please guys, practice that when on draw your firearm, even dry fire, shout STOP very loud and let it become second nature, otherwise you will end up saying something else which you will later regret.

I used to get strange looks at the range, but it has become second nature for me, and proudly my fellow shooters who I have converted.
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Old October 13, 2009, 10:26 AM   #60
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Quote:
I would prefer going to jail than changing my statement.
Problem is, the conditions and appearances that would precipitate your arrest can also get the investigation off on the wrong foot and lead to the disappearance of witnesses and the failure to identify evidence at the scene. Better to identify yourself and the perp and point out witnesses and evidence while you have the chance.

Quote:
After a gunfight, you will forget many vital details including time and distance.
I see nothing in the posts by Antitipas and fiddletown that even remotely suggest mentioning vital details including time and distance.

Quote:
You do not want to alter your statement, as it will “imply” that you were lying.
Maybe and maybe not, but why would one ever want to alter a statement to the effect that a person attacked him and that he will sign a complaint, or that identifies witnesses and evidence?
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Old October 13, 2009, 10:34 AM   #61
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Oldmarksman,

After a gunfight, everything goes blurry. It is important to identify yourself, and say nothing more. That’s my opinion on it and certainly well within my rights.
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Old October 13, 2009, 04:04 PM   #62
Glenn Dee
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Just a few more tid bits... The police dont have to advise you of your rights...
Keep it simple... Dont lie. Get with family, and friends... Dont worry so much... the dangerous part is over.
As far as advice from lawyers, and cops... consider the source.
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Old October 14, 2009, 11:13 AM   #63
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Script for all shooting incidents (except official LEO actions)

The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."
- Robert Peel

  • OPERATOR: 911 What/Where is your emergency?
  • CALLER: There was a shooting (limit the conversation to Identifying/description of yourself and, not the details of the shooting incident. Give an address/location)
  • CALLER: CLICK(Hang up the phone)
NOTE: From the ringing of the phone, to everything you say and the click of the phone, when you hanged up, are recorded. Anything you say, can be use against you in the court of the law.
  • CALLER: If there is NO LONGER ANY THREAT, have your firearm out of public display (but immediately accessible to any emergency threat of your life and love ones)
  • Attend(optional)to the person's(perp's/victim's)needs. This action of concerns, will make you look good in the eyes of the law.

Lots of emergency people will be at your shooting scene/place before you know it

AT THE SCENE OF SHOOTING
  • OFFICER: Tell me what happened?(psychological and exploratory open ended question)
  • Caller/Shooter(You are now a person of interest/Suspect)
  1. Tell the officer your name and other identifying information about yourself.
  2. Click ME!->Tell the officer you would like to speak to your/an attorney (everything you say to the officer can be use against you in court)
  3. SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!! Click me->It's your right under the law
From now on, until everything is settled,nobody else but, your lawyer is your best friend.

Disclaimer:
This is not a legal advise. Just a preferable statement & inter-action to protect yourself from any legal ramification.

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Last edited by accessLEO; October 14, 2009 at 03:34 PM.
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Old October 14, 2009, 12:46 PM   #64
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Sweet JG. Naked?!?!?

Always make sure you verbalize you are in fear of being killed or seriously injured on the 911 call and upon LEs arrival "I was in fear for my life and I am having chest pains and am in urgent need of medical attention" then say nothing else until you consult counsel.
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Old October 14, 2009, 01:21 PM   #65
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
...I am having chest pains and am in urgent need of medical attention...
A lousy idea if it's not true. Never lie. Once you are caught in a liar, you are a liar; and your credibility is gone.

See post 41.
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Old October 14, 2009, 01:54 PM   #66
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Quote:
Sweet JG. Naked?!?!?
Makes for easy identification...
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Old October 14, 2009, 05:21 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
"I was in fear for my life and I am having chest pains and am in urgent need of medical attention"
I knew I wasn't the only one who had heard that one
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Old October 14, 2009, 05:41 PM   #68
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I'd say that if you intend to use deadly force to defend your home and family, you would do very well to get to know your local chief of police, and get his/her take on the question. There is no doubt that you need to phrase things carefully in the event of a shooting. Generally, I think the best thing to do is to keep your mouth shut on the specifics until you have a lawyer present to advise you, stick to the pertinent information (number of people in the house, location, and disposition). Know the laws that govern your area, an appropriate statement will vary widely between Texas and Minnesota. Also, I agree with those who have advised against searching your home while an intrusion is in progress. Tactically speaking, the idea is to survive, and make sure those you are protecting survive, seeking out a firefight will not advance this goal. Most states have very sticky definitions for what constitutes self defense, actively pursuing and engaging an intruder can put you on the wrong side of the law (whether you are aware of, agree with, or like the law). I have never heard of any training that would advise engaging an unknown enemy, or clearing a building solo.
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Old October 14, 2009, 06:58 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Gentleman
I knew I wasn't the only one who had heard that one...
And it's still a lousy idea.
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Old October 14, 2009, 09:10 PM   #70
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You are so strict
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Old October 14, 2009, 09:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Tennessee Gentleman
You are so strict
That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.
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Old October 14, 2009, 09:32 PM   #72
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Don't mail out the wedding invitations!
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Old October 15, 2009, 01:31 AM   #73
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Even if it was a "fib" a fact not in evidence, how would it be proven?

I am sure you get hooked up to a EKG after a shooting the QRS will be fast enough to warrant 10 MMg of valium and you cannot be questioned while drugged. It is a strategy to get some breathing room after a traumatic incident.

What is your downside? Don't preach a strain on EMS. you pay taxes and you deserve service.
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Old October 15, 2009, 01:43 AM   #74
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You also can't be questioned...

... if you express the desire for an attorney's presence. And that way, you don't start things out by lying.

And paying taxes has nothing to do with the morality of tying up an ambulance and EMT so that they can't respond to actual medical cases. It has nothing to do with "deserving service" and everything to do with not being slimy.
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Old October 15, 2009, 01:54 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
Even if it was a "fib" a fact not in evidence, how would it be proven?

I am sure you get hooked up to a EKG after a shooting the QRS will be fast enough to warrant 10 MMg of valium and you cannot be questioned while drugged. It is a strategy to get some breathing room after a traumatic incident....
You want to try your luck? It's a shabby thing to do. It's the sort of thing that a guilty person would do.

As to how it would be proven, well one possibility is they find out you planned to do such a thing by reading your posts on TFL. Your Internet posts would be discoverable and admissible to show, among other things, intent, state of mind and premeditation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
...What is your downside?...
Your downside is that you're caught in your lie, everybody now knows that you're a liar; so nobody believes your self defense story. So now you're convicted of manslaughter, and you go to prison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
...Don't preach a strain on EMS. you pay taxes and you deserve service....
No you don't. You have no medical need.

Whatever else you do, don't run and don't lie.
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