12ga vs 20ga Citori

[Lurch37]

Ran across a Browning Citori 525 in 20 gauge and it seems like a nice shotgun. My problem lies in the fact that I'm an idiot when it comes to over-unders and, a few other things as well but, I digress. The 525 is light in my hands, points well, and looks really nice, as it should for the price. I have Craftsman and Snap-on tools, they both do the job but that Snap-on stuff looks a lot better, and you pay for that. Does the same hold true for an over-under?

Is a person limiting himself by getting a 20 gauge? Is it better to say have both a 12 and a 20? I do have a Benelli Montefeltro in 12ga that is nice to shoot, but I've come to like the looks of a nice over-under. Is a guy getting that much more for say $2000 versus the $900 gun? I would add that $2500 is probably tops for cost unless there is something out there for $3000 that makes me some kind of shooting God.

I did a quick search and ran across this good read and my main question would be does all this hold true for a 20 gauge as well? My interests are similar to his, occasional trap, skeet, 5 stand, upland hunting, etc..

Thank you for you replies.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=616239

[44 AMP]

Same model gun in 12 or 20? First thing to check out is, are they made on the same frame?? Some guns are 20ga tubes on a 12 ga frame, others use a smaller frame making the 20ga lighter than the "same" gun in 12ga.

I don't know enough about Citoris to be able to tell you if that's the case, or not.

Being Browning, I suspect the name is the same, but the guns are probably on different size frames. This can make significant difference to some people.

A heavier gun offers the advantage of less recoil, important if you're shooting a lot. Downside, heavier takes more effort to hold, aim and swing.

Lighter guns reduce fatigue when carried for miles afoot upland bird hunting, and a easier to swing fast, but will be more punishing when shooting long strings of fire.

Brownings are generally high quality, high dollar guns. While there have been less than stellar examples, generally the reputation is well deserved.

[rc]

I've shot trap and skeet with 12 and 20 and hunted with both chamberings.

I love 20 gauge. It won't do everything as well as a 12 gauge but it does most things almost as well at the trade off of lighter recoil in smaller and lighter guns.

If shooting dove and quail at 30 yards you probably won't know the difference between 12 and 20. If you take longer shots, the 12 will have a slight advantage but with full choke the 20s are effective on passing dove. I don't care for improved cylinder in either gauge. For rabbit or squirrel, 20s have no disadvantage.

On flushed pheasant the 20 is effective and you don't have to wait so long to shoot to not demolish the bird. 3 inch shells have the payload of typical 12 gauge pheasant loads but are a bit slower.

12 gauge will have a distinct advantage for waterfowl where the large steel shot is required.

12 guage is better for buckshot loads.

Both work great for skeet, but 12 has an advantage for trap where the shots are longer.

If you already have a 12, then you should get a 20 just for something different.

[44 AMP]

If you already have a 12, then you should get a 20 just for something different.

I've never been a fan of the 20ga. It does nothing a 12 ga won't do as well, or better. Never used one of the ligher 20ga guns, so I don't know if the difference in weight would be a factor, for me.

Because I have12ga guns, I won't have a 20 ga (or its ammo) in my house. Not because they don't work, not because I'm a 12ga snob, but because of the risk.

As a youth, I was horrified by the 12/20 burst.

I resolved to never let that happen to me, and the simplest foolproof method was to simply avoid having a 20ga. Since I had 12ga and no need, use, or want for 20ga, it was a simple solution.

I lost that particular paranoia long ago, but still have no interest in 20s, after 50+ years its just a habit.

My shotguns are all either 12ga or .410. Covers my needs just fine.

If you're a 20 ga guy, go for it, and enjoy. IF you've got 12s and 20s living together, be aware of the risk.

[Lurch37]

Talked to a guy today that shoots a lot of trap and 5 stand, and also coached the local H.S. trap team. He shoots a Citori and his daughter shoots a SKB. rc, he basically said everything you did about not much difference between the 12 and 20 other than gun weight as far as what I would be doing. Maybe a slight advantage with the 12 due to diversity.

He showed me a SKB 720 that I found to be great looking and to me a solidly built gun, although I have no experience with them. I have been reading about them today and they get generally good reviews.

[jmr40]

One ounce of shot from a 20 does exactly the same thing as 1 ounce of shot from a 12 so there is no real handicap as long as you choose loads carefully. But most standard 12 ga loads are 1 or 1 1/8 oz. You can duplicate that performance in a 20, but you have to use more expensive ammo.

With comparable guns a 20 is generally about 1 lb lighter than a 12 so at the end of the day a 20 will actually recoil more than a 12 if you're using comparable loads.

if you're shooting lighter loads in a 20 you can get less recoil, but it may be a slight handicap.

For clays shooting games I still prefer the 12. But for much hunting, where you carry a shotgun for miles, and rarely shoot more than 1/2 dozen shells in a day the 20 shines. The lighter weight is a plus. The expensive ammo does cost more, but since the number of shots is limited, it is worth it to me.

Most waterfowl hunters use heavy loads of steel shot. That would be more of a handicap with a 20 than I'm willing to take. But with modern shells and aftermarket choke tubes the 20 ga has become my goto turkey shotgun.

[Mike Irwin]

The older I get, the more I come to like the lighter shotguns for which the 20 is chambered.

Some years ago I picked up a SxS Stevens 311 in 20 gauge and I am absolutely in love with it.

I truly believe that the 20 gauge has its place in a shotgun arsenal right alongside a 12 gauge.

Of course yes, there's some truth to the saying that there's nothing a 20 can do that a 12 can't do better...

Same could be said of a 10 gauge... Or an 8 gauge...

I've never been a big fan of over unders, that's just a personal thing on my part, but my suggestion would be to, if you can, handle both the 20 and a 12 and see which one mechanically works better for you. There can be a lot of different in how they handle.

[rc]

One of my buddies bought a CDNN clearance Sabatti over under 20 gauge a few years ago and it's a very nice gun if you can find one. 20 gauge autos and pumps are also fun to shoot but over under guns are very elegant and classic. I grew up in a house with 12's and 20s and we never had any issues with loading 20 gauge shells in a 12 gauge shotgun because we didn't carry both kinds of shells at the same time or dump them in the same box. We even had early Red plastic Winchester mark 5 20 gauge shells in our house and never had a problem. There is a huge difference in size between 12 and 20 gauge shells but very little difference in actual size between 16s and 20s which are easy to confuse at a glance.

Todays 12 gauge shells come in a variety of colors like Red, orange, blue, black, green, gold and probably others, but not Yellow. Yellow is reserved for 20 gauge shells while modern 16s are color coded purple. Early plastic shells were all pretty much Red like paper shells regardless of the gauge. Whoever was unfortunate enough to discover a 20 gauge shell could form an obstruction in a 12 gauge shotgun wasn't paying attention to what they were doing before the kaboom.

[44 AMP]

Whoever was unfortunate enough to discover a 20 gauge shell could form an obstruction in a 12 gauge shotgun wasn't paying attention to what they were doing before the kaboom.

Such is the case with nearly all accidents including "kabooms". Someone isn't paying enough attention to the things needed to prevent the problem.

The general "standard" of color coding 20ga shells yellow only has cut down on the accidents a lot but its always possible unless proper care is taken.

If you (or worse, someone else, without your knowledge) drops a 20ga shell into a 12ga chamber, it will drop through the chamber, and stop a few inches forward of the chamber in the barrel.

A quick glance at the chamber will show it being empty, but you have a barrel obstruction you won't see, unless you look directly down the bore.

Back in the days when 20ga were not yellow, and shooters often dumped shells loose into a pouch or pocket, a 20ga in with the 12s might escape detection, until it "ka-boomed" the gun.

A much less common problems with pumps & semi autos, a 20ga nearly always misfeeds somewhere along the line, "announcing itself" with out much risk.

[rc]

At least with a break barrel you can make sure your bore is clear when you load it. Not so with a pump or auto.

[MarkCO]

I used to be anti-anything not a 12g.

The last 4 years, almost all I have shot is 20g, with some 16g occasionally.

I do coach a HS team, 3 State Championships, including my boys.

An ounce of shot from a 12g is NOT the same as an ounce of 20g in terms of shot column size.

With the right loads, one can do almost everything with a 20g that one can do with a 12g. When you need more pellets, like steel and such, yes, the 12g has some advantage. With TSS, anything is really in play that was 10 years ago with 10g, but that is some $.

I shoot a 20g Weatherby most of the time now, it's fine for Trap, Skeet, 5 Stand, Upland birds to the point there really is no difference. Hard Sporting Clays courses and Geese, I swap back to the 12g as I am not spending the $ on the specialty loads.

When comparing O/Us, their cost is a lot more for an equivalent quality gun. A $2500 Semi-Auto is a very nice shotgun, usually near the top of a companies offering, whereas a $2500 O/U is at the lower end. The cheap O/Us are, to me, a poor investment. I've just seen too many need multiple trips for warranty and or just totally fail. CZ and Weatherby are two that seem to have stepped out of that line and do offer good options, around $1K.

When you look at shotguns, two things are important...1. Fit and 2. Fit. If a $300 dollar shotgun fits you and it works and you put decent ammo in it, a 25 on the Trap or Skeet field is just as likely as when you are shooting a $10K shotgun. But the shotgun snobs won't like it.

Get what you like and make sure it fits.

Benelli, Beretta and Browning (the 3 Bs) are still solid choices for anyone. Stoeger, CZ and Weatherby, usually good budget choices. Start to drift out of those, and there are great options that are expensive (Zoli, Kreighoff, etc.) and cheap options that are better avoided.

[Lurch37]

Thank you for your responses.

There is quite a bit of difference in the lightness of holding the 20ga Citori compared with doing the same with the 12ga SKB. I like them both.

[rc]

If you are carrying the lighter gun is always better. When you are swinging with a shotgun, a heavier gun that balances well can have a smoother swing allowing you to break more targets. MarkO is right that fit is the most important factor over price.

[FITASC]

Same model gun in 12 or 20? First thing to check out is, are they made on the same frame??

They are not. Browning only makes two frame sizes - 12 and 20. 16s might be on either; 28 and 410 are on the 20.
My Ultra XS 20 with 30" barrels (the forerunner of the X25 series) weighs 7#-6; great for targets, but - IMO - too heavy for all day upland walking

I would add that $2500 is probably tops for cost unless there is something out there for $3000 that makes me some kind of shooting God.

In today's world, there are some semis hitting the $3K price point; a $100K won't make you a shooting God, - but you'll look DAMN good missing!
Both the Browning and Berettas in this price range are considered good solid O/Us for their low price point.

One ounce of shot from a 20 does exactly the same thing as 1 ounce of shot from a 12 so there is no real handicap as long as you choose loads carefully

Not quite true - in a 20, the recoil will be more because the gun is usually a pound lighter; secondly, the smaller bore will usually throw worse patterns.

Unlike Mike Irwin, I prefer O/Us over any other type, with a SxS in second; I LOVE the SxS look, but I shoot the O/U much better. My 20 Browning O/U doesn't get shot as much; I have maybe 25K through it (yes, I shoot a LOT of targets)

[rc]

I remember reading an article years ago, probably in American rifleman. The article talked about the relationship between shotgun patterns and bore size. The bigger shotgun bore puts out a shorter flatter (more square) shot pattern given the same amount and size of shot. Shot doesn't just spread out in a circle, it strings out horizontally as it exits the bore so it doesn't reach the target at exactly the same time creating space for a moving target to slip through. Think about how a 3 inch 410 performs on clays with a long shot string compared with a 2&3/4 28 gauge's shorter shot string with about the same amount of shot. 1 oz of shot from a 12 gauge has a more effective pattern than 1 oz of the same size shot from a 20 gauge unless your target is just standing still. One other thing to consider is the cost of 1 oz 20 gauge shells verses 7/8 oz shells which are the same price as 1 oz 12 gauge loads. I've never noticed much of a difference between 1&1/8 oz 12 gauge "target loads" and 1 oz "field loads" for breaking clays. I suspect the same is true for 7/8 oz of 8 shot vs 1 oz of 8 shot in 20 gauge. The only reason to really step up to 1 oz in a 20 gauge is when you up your shot size and need to keep your pellet count high enough for an effective pattern.

[FITASC]

I can get great patterns form my 12 gauge with my 3/4oz reloads - these are the equal of a 28 gauge as far as payload, but the patterns are just better than I got with my 28s. I also reload 3/4oz for my 20s and they work very well on quail.

[rc]

I only reload metallic cartridges, but your 3/4 oz 20 gauge loads sound interesting. I bought a few boxes of the federal high speed 3/4 oz load many years ago at Walmart but wasn't that impressed with them. 99.999% of my 20 gauge shooting has been with standard 7/8 and 1 oz factory loads with a few boxes of 1 & 1/8 oz "short magnums" and a few boxes of 1 & 1/4 oz 3 inch loads for last shots when pheasant hunting. I mostly shoot 1 oz or 1 & 1/4 oz loads in 12 gauge. I would only buy 1&1/8 oz loads for 12 when they were the cheapest deal on the shelf.

[stuckinthe60s]

go with a 12ga. more people can relate to it than a 20ga in todays market.