Are Berger better than SMK? if so, by how much?

[Shadow9mm]

I'm trying to make a bullet decision for a new cartridge, I'm getting into 6mm arc and it is a DMR/target type build. No competition, just me having fun.

I have never tried Bergers. The nicest bullet I have ever shot has been the SMKs. I have always heard Bergers are the best, aside from custom bullets. How much better are Bergers? How do you measure or explain ''better''? How much better or more consistent will my groups be with Berger's vs SMK? As it stands the Bergers are about $10 more per 100. What do I get for the extra money?

[ligonierbill]

You have to see what your rifle likes. I just tried some 168 Berger VLD in my 300 H&H, and it shoots just OK with them. Same session, 165 SGK did better. But they certainly are quality bullets with outstanding BC. What my rifle (Remington 700 Classic) really likes are Hornady ELD-X 178 and 212. The best bullet is the one that works for you.

[Rimfire5]

+1 on barrel dependence.

IMO, both SMKs and Bergers are great bullets.
So are TMKs, at least in my rifles, but recently they are very hard to find.
I find that SMKs seem to shoot great right from the start of trying to find the best load and the optimum jump. Doesn't seem to matter all that much.

Some Bergers, in my experience, particularly in my 6.5mm CM bolt action, took a bit of experimentation to find the jump that gets the most out of them.
The 140 gr Match, 140 gr Long Range, and 140 gr Hybrid Bergers all liked different jumps.
When I started, they all disappointed me by the size of the groups.
Once I got close to the right jump, they were great.
Turns out, the classic 20 thousandths starting jump I usually start with wasn't right for them.
Until I found what worked, they shot OK, but I expected more based upon the performance of 140 and 147 ELD-Ms & 142 SMKs.
Unfortunately, Bergers are expensive, so when I didn't get great results from the outset, it took some investment to get them tuned to perfection.

On the other hand, 77gr Berger OTMs in my .223 bolt action shot great from the first load.
Their tolerance for jump may depend upon the particular bullet, rifle barrel and/or the caliber.

[Jim Watson]

As said, you just have to try them.
There are others, I had good shooting with .224" JLK VLD and .308" Lapua Scenars and SMKs, all available in 6mm, too. No doubt more good target bullets out there.

I think you have to be reasonable about it.
You can wear out a barrel looking for that last zillionth of an inch on groups.
Maybe that IS your idea of fun.
Me? I WAS shooting competition and when I got to an accurate load, I stuck with it. I shot almost entirely JLK .224" with short trials of Sierra, Hornady, and Berger; my .308s were split between Lapua and Sierra; mostly Sierra.

[stagpanther]

It's not a question of which is better--it's a question of what combination works best in your rifle IMO. So many variables go into making a cartridge for your particular chamber and barrel it's not really feasible to make a sweeping generalization about it IMO. I've had excellent results with both. Berger bullets seem to demand more of a search to find the best combination to get good results, but I don't think that is a reflection of any kind of inferiority. I will say one thing about my personal experience with loading berger bullets--it seems the prevailing "common wisdom" of getting the base of the ogive very close to engaging the lands often leads me down a path of wasting bullets when in the end they often do better with a significant "jump" to the lands.

[Shadow9mm]

So its more about what the gun or barrel likes?

I follow a couple pro shooters on youtube. Granted its a small sample size, however they all seem to use Bergers as a go to and have alluded that they are the best. I know they are a premium bullet. so my expectation was they were a better bullet.

[akinswi]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

I'm trying to make a bullet decision for a new cartridge, I'm getting into 6mm arc and it is a DMR/target type build. No competition, just me having fun.

I have never tried Bergers. The nicest bullet I have ever shot has been the SMKs. I have always heard Bergers are the best, aside from custom bullets. How much better are Bergers? How do you measure or explain ''better''? How much better or more consistent will my groups be with Berger's vs SMK? As it stands the Bergers are about $10 more per 100. What do I get for the extra money?

You bring up an interesting point.

At the distance I shoot Either one does fine. I have always been partial to Sierra.

Try both and compare the data. 10 dollars more over time will add up. But we dont reload to save money now do we lol

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by akinswi

You bring up an interesting point.

At the distance I shoot Either one does fine. I have always been partial to Sierra.

Try both and compare the data. 10 dollars more over time will add up. But we dont reload to save money now do we lol

I reload for several reasons, saving money is one of them. I can generally reload match quality ammo for the price of budget ball ammo. Granted that cost savings is mitigated by me shooting more, but all the same.

While cost is not the end of it all, I don't seen any sense in wasting money. And if I can save $10 a box on bullets, that's more bullets I can buy and more shooting I can do.

[Metal god]

When I'm trying a new rifle/barrel I like to start with SMK's . They are jump insensitive and generally will shoot well in anything . If I have trouble with those I get worried this may take some time and money to figure out . I rarely start a new cartridge with Berger because they are expensive and have way to many styles to choose from . If I can get away with Seirra or Hornady I will , I hate rabbit holes and If I can avoid them I will . Haha yeah right !!! ;-)

[Unclenick]

I read that folks messing with spinners, horizontal torsion pendulums, and the Vern Juenke sonic jacket thickness measuring device could detect a little more uniformity in the Bergers. However, while perfection is nice, something that adds or subtracts a sixteenth of a moa from your groups will probably only register for benchrest competitors, and those guys often favor custom bullets rather than the big brands. Other factors that affect how well your rifle likes or dislikes a particular bullet are likely to make a bigger difference.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

So its more about what the gun or barrel likes?

I follow a couple pro shooters on youtube. Granted its a small sample size, however they all seem to use Bergers as a go to and have alluded that they are the best. I know they are a premium bullet. so my expectation was they were a better bullet.

The best bullets will shoot the best out of any barrel...provided it is stripped down to the bore, then properly fouled, then you shoot a statistically relevant number of rounds, like 20 to 40, and then compare.

There is a LOT in that statement. But if you are asking if the price of the Bergers is worth the cost difference when plinking inside say 400 yards at steel targets? That answer is a solid NO! If you are asking if, everything done right as the shooter, setting up the sights, bore and load to make the best possible group size for say 5 rounds at 600 yards, then yes, Bergers will beat SMKs by a little, TMKs by a little less.

I've proven it with multiple guns, and while I have Bergers, I shoot more TMKs than anything else, in all calibers.

[std7mag]

With the short range Benchrest guys I shoot with it's a fairly mixed crowd of who is shooting what bullet.
Some are shooting custom bullets.
Some Bergers.
Some the Sierra's.

Almost all of them shoot with the bullets "jammed" or rather touching the rifling.
Almost all will do a preliminary weight sort.
Then they will do a length sort.

But even though it's a local match, they are some serious competitors!
All looking for that 0.001" advantage.

[ocharry]

well here are my thoughts...for what they are worth...i dont have a arc but i do have a grendel and like the guys have said you will need to work up loads with different bullets and powders to find the sweet one

my grendel just so happens to love the sierra 105 blitzking bullet..it loves them so much that day before yesterday we put a 1 1/4" 10 shot group on target at 200yrds

i dont think it will matter much what other bullet i try in that rifle..i just dont think it is gona get much better than that with me driving...oh how i wish i had my 45 year old eyes back

while i do like little bug hole groups...i am a hunter first and i want the bullet to do its job quick....but it has to be on target to do that

i have shot a lot of competition stuff through the years and i have a lot of dust collectors to show i was doing well

but when the bullet hits the target its all about finding what the rifle likes...opinions dont really matter much....they may guide you to a bullet and powder but the rifle will be the decider and have the final say as to what works and it likes

i also think your biggest problem is going to be finding the stuff to make it work for you...if you find a bullet and powder combo that shines...might i suggest you load up on the stuff that makes it work...if you can find it after you work it up

the old saying is buy it cheap and stack it deep...well the cheap part is out the window these days...lol

good luck shadow...i hope you find the one

ocharry

[RC20]

I got a couple of boxes of Burgers on sale, good sale (lo many years ago). I had a custom 7.5mm Swiss barrel, had not got anything to shoot decently out of it (best was around 1 inch and I wanted half)

The Bergers shot two of top loads, 1/4 inch in 5 shots at 200 meters. Price was full boat at $45 a box or higher and I had other bullets to try. Never got anything to shoot out of that barrel with any consistency, I dumped the barrel and got a new one that does really nicely like 3/8 groups in two speed areas.