Old .22 Revolving rifle, help I.D.?

ihctractor · January 15, 2009, 09:38 PM

I have a very unique old revolving rifle that I need some info on. Its a small frame 9 shot revolving rifle chambered in .22 LR.

It loads single action style through a port in the back of the frame. Unloading involves pushing a release button under the barrel and pulling the cylinder pin out, once the cylinder is removed you push the pin back into the front which pushes a star ejector out the back ejecting all 9 shells at once.

The trigger will fire single and double action.
Barrel is 17 1/2" from crown to cylinder face and the overall length is about 32"
There is no name, proof marks or any other markings that I can find except for a 4 digit serial no# on the bottom tang.

The gun shoots very nice and is kind of fun but I really have no use for it and was thinking about selling.
Does anybody have any idea what this is, who made it, when, and about what its worth?
Thanks for any help you can give me.

444 · January 15, 2009, 09:44 PM

That's bad to the bone.

LHB1 · January 15, 2009, 11:05 PM

Very unusual. Have never seen one like that before. Looks like an H&R pistol with a rifle barrel and butt stock attached. Just a long shot but did H&R ever make such? Total omission of name is odd and suggests it may be a knockoff or from another country?

James K · January 15, 2009, 11:24 PM

It does look like an H&R. FWIW, I think it is an aftermarket job of converting an H&R revolver into a rifle. The guy who made it probably was unsure of its legality and removed all the markings. Technically, it would be illegal, if the gun started out as a handgun, to remove the serial number, but IIRC a lot of H&Rs never had serial numbers, so I wouldn't sweat that too much.

An interesting piece.

Jim

444 · January 16, 2009, 12:02 AM

FWIW: The first thing I thought of when I looked at it was H&R. When I saw that it was a 9 shot my theory became stronger.

Chipperman · January 16, 2009, 05:29 PM

In the third pic it looks like there should be a loading gate there. Is it removable?
Cool rifle. I'd keep it.

ihctractor · January 16, 2009, 05:47 PM

No loading gate. Its just an open port in the frame. When the cylinder locks in position the hole in the frame is always just a little off center from the hole in the cylinder so that the shell can't fall out. You pull the hammer to half cock position and the cylinder moves freely so you can line up the holes to load.
Lots of opinions that it's an H&R, anybody know a model and what it would be worth?

RJay · January 16, 2009, 06:09 PM

As far as I know H&R never made a revolving rifle, but it sure looks like one, Bill Foforth, the Iver Johnson expert is doing a book on H&R's and could answer if it was indeed a H&R I know he would love to see it for his research.
Who knows, you may have one of a kind like Bill's tool room Iver Johnson 38 specials,swing out cylinder revolver. http //www.geocities.com.iverjohnsoncollectors/[/url] well,that's his link, you will have to cut and paste or coyp.

James K · January 16, 2009, 08:25 PM

Assuming the base gun was an H&R, I would say it looks like a Model 922, but one of the older ones after they went to the new cylinder stop but before they changed to the cross-pin cylinder pin release. Someone more expert than I will have to determine what era that was, but IMHO we are talking just before or just after WWII.

Jim

RJay · January 16, 2009, 09:02 PM

I have a request in to Bill Goforth and Jim Hauff to have a look at it.

**Mike Irwin** · January 16, 2009, 09:17 PM

Everything about it screams H&R to me, too, but I can't find a thing on it.

When did you get it? That might at least help establish a date for it.

Tom2 · January 16, 2009, 10:28 PM

The frame and cylinder and all that looks exactly like my H&R model 900 revolver. I mean perfectly identical. So you either have a custom job or a prototype. You know where it came or presumably more than we know about that but I would say the experts listed above are the true source of knowledge on that thing. It might even end up pictured in a book! If it is a one-off, then establishing value would be difficult but from the immaculate appearance I would say that adds value. Looks like something you would have to advertise and whatever the highest bidder wants to pay is what it is worth. If there are no others like it there is no established value beyond what the original gun value was. Maybe an auction item but if you get it in a book with a picture, for some reason referencing it to the book will make it more desireable to collectors.

ihctractor · January 16, 2009, 10:43 PM

well, so much for a simple answer

.
I picked this up probably 15 years ago in a consignment antique store. At the time I was sure I paid too much but for some reason I wanted it. I have no other history on it at all

.

SilentHitz · January 17, 2009, 09:05 AM

I love that little plinker...when you decide on a price, zapp me a pm. Nice and unique fun gun.

I agree with those that say it screams H&R. but I've never seen one like that.

RJay · January 17, 2009, 06:44 PM

ihctactor, I haven't heard form Bill goforth yet but Jim Hauff has looked at the pictures and is very intrigued. He has asked if you will post a picture of the numbers on the tang. Jim is a H&R collector and is very knowledgeable on H&R's You will see his name in the 2009 Bluebook. He agrees, if home made it was by an expert, Jim has joined the forum but has not received his activation code yet. Jim thinks maybe a 922 from 1952 or1954

ihctractor · January 19, 2009, 06:48 PM

For some reason I can't post pictures ever since the site was down

The numbers are 4 digits that look hand done - not roll stamped. the number is either 0001 or 1000, can't tell.

jamesjo · January 19, 2009, 11:01 PM

ihctractor,
I know that Jim Hauff and Bill Goforth would really like to see some more pics of your revolving rifle, and quite frankly these guys are probably your best two chances in the world, at least in this country, to properly identify your piece. I also would like to see them, not because I am any kind of expert, but because I love any thing H&R!!
So if possible, e mail me any pics that you can, the more views, the better, and I will forward the pics on to these gentlemen. I don't know if Jim Is able to post on this site yet, so if not, I will relay any info he has to you.
I hate to give out his email without his permission, but I will be glad to forward the pics to him!
Jim Ritchie [email protected]

32 Magnum · January 21, 2009, 10:24 PM

I finally got in! Thanks to RJay for throwing the line. I think you guys have pretty well nailed down that this is indeed an H&R. Comparing the frame with pieces in my collection I, strongly, believe this piece is derived from the 1953 to 1955 2nd Model 922 because of the "acorn" shaped hammer spur. Tom2 said it looks just like the Mod. 900, that is because the M 900 was based upon the M 922, but had the left frame cut to allow the "Pop out" cylinder removal system rather than the "pull pin" system. I'd really like to eye ball this piece - however, from the pics, I'm inclined, also, to believe it is a pattern room or prototype piece. I've got a few prototypes (hand guns as well as shotguns) in my collection, and all have very unique serial or ID numbers, that's why I'd like to see the number stamped on the lower tang. On this Model during the specified time span, all the identifying stampings were on the left side of the barrel. So, if the original barrel was removed and the 16" was installed, all the identifiers would be lost. This revolving carbine may very well be one of a kind...I'd like to add it to my collection, should you ever decide to sell - let me know. Thanks for sharing this very interesting item.
Jim Hauff - H&R Collector

ihctractor · February 15, 2009, 11:09 PM

Thanks everybody for the great information. After doing all all the research I can handle and not being able to determine a fair value on this, and being in need of some cash, I have decided to list it on Gunbroker and let the market determine the value. If you're interested you can check it out , item 123054092.
Thanks

Flatcat · February 25, 2009, 11:42 PM

I've been watching this thread diligently as the rifle very much intrigued me. Anyway just thought some of you would like to kmow that the rifle sold on gunbroker for 430 dollars, quite a bit cheaper than i thought it would go for.

SilentHitz · February 27, 2009, 03:09 PM

Wow, wish he had sent me a pm, I would have paid more than that easy...oh well, someone is a happy camper.

Wish I had kept track of this thread, didn't even know it was on GB.

January 15, 2009, 09:44 PM	#2
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	That's bad to the bone. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

January 15, 2009, 11:05 PM	#3
LHB1 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,545	Very unusual. Have never seen one like that before. Looks like an H&R pistol with a rifle barrel and butt stock attached. Just a long shot but did H&R ever make such? Total omission of name is odd and suggests it may be a knockoff or from another country? __________________ Good shooting and be safe. LB Last edited by LHB1; January 15, 2009 at 11:36 PM.

January 16, 2009, 12:02 AM	#5
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	FWIW: The first thing I thought of when I looked at it was H&R. When I saw that it was a 9 shot my theory became stronger. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

January 16, 2009, 10:28 PM	#12
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	The frame and cylinder and all that looks exactly like my H&R model 900 revolver. I mean perfectly identical. So you either have a custom job or a prototype. You know where it came or presumably more than we know about that but I would say the experts listed above are the true source of knowledge on that thing. It might even end up pictured in a book! If it is a one-off, then establishing value would be difficult but from the immaculate appearance I would say that adds value. Looks like something you would have to advertise and whatever the highest bidder wants to pay is what it is worth. If there are no others like it there is no established value beyond what the original gun value was. Maybe an auction item but if you get it in a book with a picture, for some reason referencing it to the book will make it more desireable to collectors. __________________ Your gun is like your nose, it is just wrong for someone else to pick it for you!

January 16, 2009, 10:43 PM	#13
ihctractor Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 78	well, so much for a simple answer. I picked this up probably 15 years ago in a consignment antique store. At the time I was sure I paid too much but for some reason I wanted it. I have no other history on it at all.

January 15, 2009, 11:24 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It does look like an H&R. FWIW, I think it is an aftermarket job of converting an H&R revolver into a rifle. The guy who made it probably was unsure of its legality and removed all the markings. Technically, it would be illegal, if the gun started out as a handgun, to remove the serial number, but IIRC a lot of H&Rs never had serial numbers, so I wouldn't sweat that too much. An interesting piece. Jim

January 16, 2009, 05:29 PM	#6
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	In the third pic it looks like there should be a loading gate there. Is it removable? Cool rifle. I'd keep it.

January 16, 2009, 05:47 PM	#7
ihctractor Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 78	No loading gate. Its just an open port in the frame. When the cylinder locks in position the hole in the frame is always just a little off center from the hole in the cylinder so that the shell can't fall out. You pull the hammer to half cock position and the cylinder moves freely so you can line up the holes to load. Lots of opinions that it's an H&R, anybody know a model and what it would be worth?

January 16, 2009, 06:09 PM	#8
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	As far as I know H&R never made a revolving rifle, but it sure looks like one, Bill Foforth, the Iver Johnson expert is doing a book on H&R's and could answer if it was indeed a H&R I know he would love to see it for his research. Who knows, you may have one of a kind like Bill's tool room Iver Johnson 38 specials,swing out cylinder revolver. http //www.geocities.com.iverjohnsoncollectors/[/url] well,that's his link, you will have to cut and paste or coyp.

January 16, 2009, 08:25 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Assuming the base gun was an H&R, I would say it looks like a Model 922, but one of the older ones after they went to the new cylinder stop but before they changed to the cross-pin cylinder pin release. Someone more expert than I will have to determine what era that was, but IMHO we are talking just before or just after WWII. Jim

January 16, 2009, 09:02 PM	#10
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	I have a request in to Bill Goforth and Jim Hauff to have a look at it.

January 16, 2009, 09:17 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Everything about it screams H&R to me, too, but I can't find a thing on it. When did you get it? That might at least help establish a date for it.

January 17, 2009, 09:05 AM	#14
SilentHitz Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Ms. Posts: 1,984	WOW... I love that little plinker...when you decide on a price, zapp me a pm. Nice and unique fun gun. I agree with those that say it screams H&R. but I've never seen one like that. Last edited by SilentHitz; January 17, 2009 at 09:13 AM. Reason: added comment

January 17, 2009, 06:44 PM	#15
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	ihctactor, I haven't heard form Bill goforth yet but Jim Hauff has looked at the pictures and is very intrigued. He has asked if you will post a picture of the numbers on the tang. Jim is a H&R collector and is very knowledgeable on H&R's You will see his name in the 2009 Bluebook. He agrees, if home made it was by an expert, Jim has joined the forum but has not received his activation code yet. Jim thinks maybe a 922 from 1952 or1954

January 19, 2009, 06:48 PM	#16
ihctractor Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 78	For some reason I can't post pictures ever since the site was down The numbers are 4 digits that look hand done - not roll stamped. the number is either 0001 or 1000, can't tell.

January 19, 2009, 11:01 PM	#17
jamesjo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2007 Location: Nebraska Posts: 195	ihctractor, I know that Jim Hauff and Bill Goforth would really like to see some more pics of your revolving rifle, and quite frankly these guys are probably your best two chances in the world, at least in this country, to properly identify your piece. I also would like to see them, not because I am any kind of expert, but because I love any thing H&R!! So if possible, e mail me any pics that you can, the more views, the better, and I will forward the pics on to these gentlemen. I don't know if Jim Is able to post on this site yet, so if not, I will relay any info he has to you. I hate to give out his email without his permission, but I will be glad to forward the pics to him! Jim Ritchie [email protected]

January 21, 2009, 10:24 PM	#18
32 Magnum Member In Memoriam Join Date: January 17, 2009 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 364	I finally got in! Thanks to RJay for throwing the line. I think you guys have pretty well nailed down that this is indeed an H&R. Comparing the frame with pieces in my collection I, strongly, believe this piece is derived from the 1953 to 1955 2nd Model 922 because of the "acorn" shaped hammer spur. Tom2 said it looks just like the Mod. 900, that is because the M 900 was based upon the M 922, but had the left frame cut to allow the "Pop out" cylinder removal system rather than the "pull pin" system. I'd really like to eye ball this piece - however, from the pics, I'm inclined, also, to believe it is a pattern room or prototype piece. I've got a few prototypes (hand guns as well as shotguns) in my collection, and all have very unique serial or ID numbers, that's why I'd like to see the number stamped on the lower tang. On this Model during the specified time span, all the identifying stampings were on the left side of the barrel. So, if the original barrel was removed and the 16" was installed, all the identifiers would be lost. This revolving carbine may very well be one of a kind...I'd like to add it to my collection, should you ever decide to sell - let me know. Thanks for sharing this very interesting item. Jim Hauff - H&R Collector

February 15, 2009, 11:09 PM	#19
ihctractor Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 78	For Sale Thanks everybody for the great information. After doing all all the research I can handle and not being able to determine a fair value on this, and being in need of some cash, I have decided to list it on Gunbroker and let the market determine the value. If you're interested you can check it out , item 123054092. Thanks

February 25, 2009, 11:42 PM	#20
Flatcat Member Join Date: October 2, 2008 Posts: 18	I've been watching this thread diligently as the rifle very much intrigued me. Anyway just thought some of you would like to kmow that the rifle sold on gunbroker for 430 dollars, quite a bit cheaper than i thought it would go for.

February 27, 2009, 03:09 PM	#21
SilentHitz Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Ms. Posts: 1,984	Wow, wish he had sent me a pm, I would have paid more than that easy...oh well, someone is a happy camper. Wish I had kept track of this thread, didn't even know it was on GB. __________________ Guns don't kill people, husbands who come home early do. http://k5fv.com/