Flintlocks in WWI? What?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I am flipping channels and come across a show about an African-American infantry unit in WWI. It seemed to be very brave and feared by the Germans.

So, they have a reenacted fire fight. The American troops are wearing French helmets and firing flintlocks. In fact, they fire, recock the gun and fire again. They just pull the hammer back.

You don't actually see the guns fire.

What is going on here! The mind boggles.

[T. O'Heir]

Sounds like Hollywood or the Dept. of the Army. Despite what black troopies did during W.W. I they still were heavily discriminated against until Truman dealt with it.

[kilimanjaro]

Isn't low-budget televised history wonderful? The need for a visual action scene will trump historical accuracy every time.

The two black US combat units in WWI were issued the Enfield 1917 rifle. They also had their own machine gun and artillery units, supplied as all the white units were.

Their combat record is acceptable. Neither substandard, as was touted at the time, nor superlative, as is touted today. They got their job done on an equal level with most white units. One combat failure was caused by lack of supplies and poor leadership, leading to racial calumny, but the same causes existed in the initial combat failures of some white units, as well.

The vast majority of black troops in the war were service troops. They deserve a lot of recognition for Herculean task records, such as unloading a ship of cargo in three hours, building hundreds of miles of military roads, railroad construction and repair, and all the work required to place and sustain a million-man army on a battle front.

[Outlaw75]

I don't know about flintlocks, but the helmets were somewhat correct. The 369th Infantry was assigned to the French 4th Army and was issued French equipment including helmets and Lebel rifles.

[rickyrick]

I once spotted a mini14 in a history channel show. It was a d-day battle scene. I can't remember the exact show. But a mini is closer visually to an m1 carbine than a flintlock to a bolt action. A repeating flintlock at that.

[BillM]

Given the recent shows on TV--especially the History Channel documentary
drivel on the World Wars, it's painfully obvious that an arms consultant
is no longer in the budget.

[A pause for the COZ]

yea, That stuff drives me crazy. Esp on shows that are catering to us.
We kind of know what we are looking at, So they should at least make an effort.

I guess I have rubbed off on my Son now too.
We were watching a Documentary and the sniper had the Lens covers down.
He was loosing it.
I had to laugh..
I said wait till i turn you onto some of the War movies from the 60- 70's that all sides use US equipment.
He said HUH??? Why would you watch that?
Spoiled I say!!!

You have not lived until you have seen a M48 Patton with a Swastika on it.

[kilimanjaro]

In the film The Blue Max, despite the big budget, the British Army in WWI used No.4 rifles.

Lots of films rented out the Spanish Army, like Patton and Battle of the Bulge. So armor was old US tanks and such. The Spanish Air Force could provide genuine Heinkel bombers, though.

It's not just the equipment, the tactics and combat missions ca be rediculous.

It used to be, most people involved in film-making were veterans. Now, that's no longer the case. Only in Hollywood can a PTSD psycho like Rambo become the poster child of the Vietnam War.

[DPris]

And, don't forget the semi-auto Marlin Guide Gun in the new Jurassic.
Denis

[Andy Blozinski]

You have not lived until you have seen a M48 Patton with a (insert 1960s movie flub here*)

*set of vise grips on the machinegun mount in a WW II movie.

What's your insert?

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah, it's annoying.

Like seeing No 1 Mk IIIs in Zulu....

Or seeing Sgt. Schultz carrying a Krag Jorgenson in Hogan's Heroes.

Or seeing Germans, Americans, British, and French soldiers carrying a complete and total mishmash of firearms in that horrific History Channel show about World War II that was on last year...

Or any of a million other firearms fox paws...

That's the curse of knowing that you're orders of magnitude more knowledgeable than the people who are (not) putting any effort into getting the firearms correct.

Then you see a movie that actually gets things pretty much spot on right, and it's obvious that someone did their homework...

Two good examples are The Mummy, and L.A. Confidential.

Whomever did the firearms work in those movies did a pretty damned good job.

The guns of the French Foreign Legion, including the two Mle 1873 revolvers that the main character carries? Wow. That was epically correct.

[thallub]

Movie makers often make errors when it comes to period correct weaponry.

BTW:

General "Black Jack" Pershing did not want black combat troops in his command. General Pershing simply turned the 369th, 370th, 371st and 372nd infantry regiments over to French army command where they fought alongside French colonial troops.

Members of those units wore US uniforms, French helmets and fought with Berthier rifles made in the USA by Remington. The 369th infantry regiment (Harlem Hellfighters) was in combat for six months and fought with distinction.

[rickyrick]

I'm not sure why firearms enthusiast expect perfection in movies, they are after all movies. Nothing on tv is meant for knowledge gain. Every show is geared toward attracting a group of people's money.

Entertainment is full of impossible actions, but those darn firearms better be exactly correct.

The new terminator movie, I caught a glimpse of what I thought was an AR pistol with no buffer tube. Was at the theater so no rewind. Anyone else see it?

[kilimanjaro]

Giving the gun movie folks a break, there is a western from the 1950's, can't recall the title, with an Indian wearing a wristwatch, and one of the Trojan War epics from the 1960's has a marching platoon of hoplites, one of whom is wearing sneakers.

Whaddya expect for a film budget of 63 dollars?

[CowTowner]

Don't forget the epic Ben Hur. All those men running down the hill were USC students. Watch for the glint coming from their wrist watches in the sun. Oh, and look for the eyeglasses too.

[SPEMack618]

House-Hold Six has a standing rule that the only time I'm allowed to comment on firearms as shown on the TV is if it does in a complimentary matter.

[Bart Noir]

The 369th infantry regiment (Harlem Hellfighters) was in combat for six months and fought with distinction.

Wasn't that the unit which was given the honor of more-or-less leading the French victory parade in Paris?

And Glenn, was the footage clear enough that you could be sure they were flintlocks, not, say, Springfield Trapdoor rifles? There would be a whole lot of manual hammer cocking going on with those.

Bart Noir

[thallub]

Wasn't that the unit which was given the honor of more-or-less leading the French victory parade in Paris?

According to what i have read they were not in the Paris victory parade or the New York victory parade. They got consolation prize; a NY ticker tape parade organized by their Colonel.

Racism of the time denied the Soldiers of the 369th the recognition they deserved and the unit was absent from the Allied Victory Parade in Paris at the end of World War I. But the regiment's white command, Col. William Hayward, insisted that his Soldiers get their parade and so on 17 February 1919 New York put on a lavish ticker tape parade to welcome the 369th home.

According to the New York World 250,000 people turned out to watch the 369th parade from 23rd Street and Fifth Avenue to 129th St. The Soldiers marched 20 abreast in French marching formation while the New York Police Band provided music at strategic points. Lieutenant James Reece Europe led the Hellfighters' own band. At Sixtieth Street the New York governor Alfred Smith and other dignitaries manned a reviewing stand. At 110th Street the parade swung into Lenox Avenue, Harlem's main thoroughfare. From 129th Street the crowd could no longer be restrained. The soldiers switched from their massed phalanx to an open formation, which allowed spectators to more easily recognize their fathers, sons, brothers, and friends. Harlemites swarmed the ranks to embrace their loved ones. "Flowers fell in showers from above," reported the New York World.

http://readme.readmedia.com/Modern-H...oldiers/568079

[CLC]

Ive always liked Kelly's hero's and they made a decent attempt at building a Tiger tank but the sniper guy uses a MN 91/30 sniper rifle.

[Pilot]

I am a huge Kelly's Heroes fan, but there are some wrong firearms. They filmed it Yugoslavia because they had a lot of M4 Shermans. I always thought it was funny the American sniper had a Russian rifle.

[4V50 Gary]

The bigger the object, the harder to get real stuff.

Saving Pvt. Ryan had a decent mock up of the Tiger I and it's better than the M-47 Pattons used to fill the role of the King Tiger in The Battle of the Bulge.

The British flick about the pursuit of the Graf Spee had something like an American Baltimore Class heavy cruiser play the role of the Graf Spee.

Thankfully for the Battle of Britain the producers managed to get those Hispano-Suiza Messerschmitts and He-111 (albeit with the wrong engines) and some real Spitfires and Hurricanes. Note though that in the "Repeat please" scene the trailing "Vic" of fighters aren't Hurricanes but Messerschmitts. They have tail struts.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

The British flick about the pursuit of the Graf Spee had something like an American Baltimore Class heavy cruiser play the role of the Graf Spee.

The Graf Spee was a "pocket" battleship, which was in reality not much bigger, heavier, or more heavily armed than a heavy cruiser of the day. It was much smaller and lighter than American battleships of the era. Germany was subject to restrictions regarding the number and size of military ships they could build, so the Graf Spee (and a sister ship, whose name I don't remember) were built to nominally conform to the restrictions (although the Germans cheated a bit -- surprise, surprise).

The Commander of the British task force that pursued the Graf Spee was, I've been told, a distant relative on my father's side of the family. That makes it a bit more interesting to me.

The Wikipedia article on the Admiral Graf Spee, in fact, calls it a "heavy cruiser (originally termed Panzerschiff or armoured ship, sometimes referred to as "pocket battleship")." Specs:

LWL = 610 feet
Beam = 71 feet
Displacement = 16,410 tons
Main guns = (6) 11-inch (2 each in three turrets)


By contrast, the specs on the American battlehip Missouri were:

LWL = 887 feet
Beam = 108 feet
Displacement = 45,000 tons
Main guns = (9) 16-inch (3 each in three turrets)


The Graf Spee clearly wasn't in the same league as a "real" battleship.

[PA32Mark]

More in line with the original post......... Somewhere around 1980, I recall seeing news reports of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan that showed some mujahadeen fighters armed with what looked like flintlock rifles. The reports (pictures) that I recall seeing indicate that there were some of these old rifles still floating around in tribal areas, until modern Russian small arms could be captured for use.

[kilimanjaro]

Those Afghanis were using the homemade jezail, a real prize when captured by US troops today, and probably some British muskets and Sniders. Lots of Lee-Enfields, too. It's mostly replaced by Russian and Chinese weapons, now, for those who engage modern forces.

I saw footage of some Muj with Martini-Henry and Lee-Enfield rifles, while part of their group fired a surface-to-air missile at a Russian helo, got to be one of the more anachronistic news clips ever.

[SPEMack618]

It was positively surreal to look at captured Mosins and Enfields; while armed with an M-4A1.