Making rifle barrels?

DL · February 21, 2001, 08:45 PM

Many years ago I worked my way through college in a machine shop, operating presses, lathes, etc. whenever I could. I see ads for barrel blanks in some of the catalogs I get, and that's got me wondering what goes into making a rifle barrel, and of course, what it would take to dust off some of those old skills and give it a try.

Can anyone describe the process? What kind of $$$ investment am I looking at for tools? Is it possible to learn to do it from published materials, or do I need to fork over more $$$ to get an old pro to show me the ropes? (Might do that one anyway.)

I'm not looking for a complete gunsmithing course or setup, just interested in learning enough to make and install a barrel on a rifle.

Thanks...

DL

Tshoes · February 22, 2001, 12:49 AM

Forget making your own barrel............
The blanks you see, are rifled.....
You cannot afford, or would even want to afford a machine to cut rifle, or button rifle a barrel.
(Based on your statements).
Now, for the fun part, you could very easily get a gunsmith special barrel.....usually short chambered around .010 short, and you could easily get some old hand to show you how, and maybe even use his equip.....for a price!!!!!!

bergie · February 22, 2001, 11:31 AM

The 2 that are currently most common are I think button rifling and hammer forging. These 2 methods impress the rifling into the barrel using a great deal of force. For an explanation of these two methods by a master who unfortunately is no longer with us, the highly respected Gale MacMillan, do a search using barrel making as the keywords and his name, in the Art of the Rifle forum. I believe that there are a few companies that still actually cut rifling in their barrels, but these two methods have taken over.
bergie

Tshoes, I would like to be able to afford the machinery

Spatula · February 22, 2001, 01:25 PM

is the easiest once everything is in production. Even the chamber can be done at the same time of rifling!

Unfortunately hammer forging is properly the most expensive way to make a small quantity of barrels. Only a few large cooperates can afford those machines. i.e. Ruger, Remington. The machinery and mandrel are very costly. Bottom rifling comes second. Cut rifle is about the same but offer better flexibility.
I haven't heard of any EDM'ed rifle barrels (many pistol barrels are made this way nowadays). Can't give you much info on that.
Unless you want to make a living out of producing and selling barrels, it ain't worth making one yourself no matter which method you choose.
Lijia has very good tech info on his website and he does make great barrels.

**4V50 Gary** · February 22, 2001, 03:03 PM

Contact the NMLRA (National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association). Ask to buy this month's and last month's copy of their magazine, Muzzle Blasts! Both discuss the rifling of a barrel blank with the last month issue discussing a rifling machine.

If you can get a copy of Ned Robert's book, The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle, Roberts has an excellant description of how to use the rifling machine and setting up the twist. Conceptually, it's not hard to understand at all.

Closed and continued at the Smithy Forum.

[Edited by 4V50 Gary on 02-22-2001 at 09:36 PM]

Alex Johnson · February 23, 2001, 01:41 AM

How many of you guys who say it's too expensive to make a barrel have heard of Harry Pope? Barrel making is not entirely beyond the grasp of a dedicated individual, being willing to learn the necessary skills and than doing are far more important variables in the equation than expensive tools. This applies to just about every skill in the book. Pope did all his work with machinery many of you wouldn't let in your shops, but how many of you would turn down a chance at a pope barrel?

Dangus · February 23, 2001, 03:07 AM

I have made muzzle loader barrels before, about 3 total. It's a HUGE amount of work to handforge a barrel, and I will never go through that again after the first one. The rest I did with swages on a trip hammer using a mild steel mandrel, which I cooled in water as I worked to keep it from welding to the barrel. My technique for rifling was not normal though and I did it on the spur of the moment. I basically ran a square cutter tool through the barrel, which cuts at each of the corners(you could use a hex tool for this), and dragged it through with wire and a crank. It cut 4 deep, straight grooves in the barrel. Then I cleaned it out with barrel ream made for shotguns, you know those flex hone ones... and then simply heated the barrel up and twisted it carefully with the round mandrel still inside. I straightened it out afterwards and with a bit of work after that it became a muzzle loader barrel. Much harder than the swords I've made, much much more work. One of these has since gone on a rifle for a friend I owned a favor two, and the other are still sitting in a box with the stocks I have not finished yet(I will someday though!!).

Now this above technique works GREAT for a muzzle loader, but for a modern rifle could use a more precision version of it. For the barrel forge two pieces of some allow steel(I imagine 5160 might work, or 6150(I think they make leaf springs out of this...) talk to a metalurgist and gunsmith for a better idea...) together around a mandrel and then tig weld the seam with a rod of the same material. Then forge it some more, run a more precision version of my ream idea through there, maybe one with six edges, and then clean and twist. The real part you'll have a hard time with is the heat treating. DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF THE FIRST TIME!!!! You MUST either be a master metal worker, or a master gunsmith to do this without some consulting. It's extremely dangerous in a modern gun to not treat the barrel correctly. In my muzzle loader, it's not a big deal, but even in a small calibur like .223, the wrong treatment could blow your gun up in your face. You will also have to use a more careful firing technique with the high pressure gun than with a muzzleloader. You can't have any pitting or excessive fire scale. You will also have to finish the barrel up a bit after the treating, just running a hone through it if nothing else. In disclaimer I've never done high pressure barrels before, and I am just some guy on the internet, so if you proceed to try my ideas out, be sure that a master gunsmith keeps an eye on what you are doing. You can screw around with these ideas to your heart's content, but do not stick them in a gun that you, or more importantly, someone else, may use before a master gunsmith looks them over with a magnifier. It would also not hurt at all to have a rockwell tester available, and also to find a place to x-ray the finished barrels for you.

Ok, that out of the way... just buy a barrel...

George Stringer · February 23, 2001, 09:07 AM

DL, to answer your question. You buy a blank, contour, thread, chamber and fit to the action. If you have access to a lathe large enough for barrel work you can do it. George

DL · February 23, 2001, 11:13 AM

Thanks for all the responses. I'm getting the impression that making a barrel for a hunting or target rifle from scratch would be ridiculously expensive. In my ignorance I was envisioning buying a length of appropriate steel, spending my side-job savings on a much better lathe (am considering that anyway), and drilling away.

Checking the price lists for a couple of the barrel makers I've been referred to here, I can see that just buying the barrel I want and finding something else to do for a hobby might be a little less stressful on the wallet...

DL

Dangus · February 23, 2001, 02:38 PM

Just for reference... A coolant feed stock-removal drillbit of only 6 inches in length can cost as much as 600 dollars, depending on the size. Now imagine the costs of one long enough for a barrel. These drill bits are like gold value and if you break one you will probably kill yourself out of sheer horror...

**Mike Irwin** · February 23, 2001, 03:34 PM

There are also two different methods to cut rifling in a barrel.

One is the traditional cutter method, in which a single cutter is passed through the barrel multiple times, each time making a slightly deeper cut (using spacers under the cutter, or different sized cutters), until the rifling is the proper depth.

The traditional method normally cuts a single groove at a time. If you want a barrel with 6 groove rifling, you'll have to make 6 separate sets of cuts.

The more common method (these days) is broach cutting. The broach cutter has multiple cutters on the same head. One pass through the barrel cuts an entire groove.

The draw back to this process, from what I've heard, is that broach cutting normally leaves a lot more tool marks and chattering behind in the barrel, which have to be smoothed out.

**Mike Irwin** · February 23, 2001, 03:35 PM

Alex,

Didn't Pope purchase his barrel blanks pre-drilled, but unrifled?

I don't think he did his own boring, but I may be wrong about that.

February 22, 2001, 12:49 AM	#2
Tshoes Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2000 Posts: 791	Grasshopper...........a bold idea, and proposal...but..... Forget making your own barrel............ The blanks you see, are rifled..... You cannot afford, or would even want to afford a machine to cut rifle, or button rifle a barrel. (Based on your statements). Now, for the fun part, you could very easily get a gunsmith special barrel.....usually short chambered around .010 short, and you could easily get some old hand to show you how, and maybe even use his equip.....for a price!!!!!!

February 22, 2001, 11:31 AM	#3
bergie Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 1999 Posts: 567	several methods The 2 that are currently most common are I think button rifling and hammer forging. These 2 methods impress the rifling into the barrel using a great deal of force. For an explanation of these two methods by a master who unfortunately is no longer with us, the highly respected Gale MacMillan, do a search using barrel making as the keywords and his name, in the Art of the Rifle forum. I believe that there are a few companies that still actually cut rifling in their barrels, but these two methods have taken over. bergie Tshoes, I would like to be able to afford the machinery

February 22, 2001, 01:25 PM	#4
Spatula Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: ATL, GA Posts: 87	Hammer forged barrel.... is the easiest once everything is in production. Even the chamber can be done at the same time of rifling! Unfortunately hammer forging is properly the most expensive way to make a small quantity of barrels. Only a few large cooperates can afford those machines. i.e. Ruger, Remington. The machinery and mandrel are very costly. Bottom rifling comes second. Cut rifle is about the same but offer better flexibility. I haven't heard of any EDM'ed rifle barrels (many pistol barrels are made this way nowadays). Can't give you much info on that. Unless you want to make a living out of producing and selling barrels, it ain't worth making one yourself no matter which method you choose. Lijia has very good tech info on his website and he does make great barrels.

February 23, 2001, 03:34 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	There are also two different methods to cut rifling in a barrel. One is the traditional cutter method, in which a single cutter is passed through the barrel multiple times, each time making a slightly deeper cut (using spacers under the cutter, or different sized cutters), until the rifling is the proper depth. The traditional method normally cuts a single groove at a time. If you want a barrel with 6 groove rifling, you'll have to make 6 separate sets of cuts. The more common method (these days) is broach cutting. The broach cutter has multiple cutters on the same head. One pass through the barrel cuts an entire groove. The draw back to this process, from what I've heard, is that broach cutting normally leaves a lot more tool marks and chattering behind in the barrel, which have to be smoothed out. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 23, 2001, 03:35 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	Alex, Didn't Pope purchase his barrel blanks pre-drilled, but unrifled? I don't think he did his own boring, but I may be wrong about that. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 21, 2001, 08:45 PM	#1
DL Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: South Florida Posts: 27	Many years ago I worked my way through college in a machine shop, operating presses, lathes, etc. whenever I could. I see ads for barrel blanks in some of the catalogs I get, and that's got me wondering what goes into making a rifle barrel, and of course, what it would take to dust off some of those old skills and give it a try. Can anyone describe the process? What kind of $$$ investment am I looking at for tools? Is it possible to learn to do it from published materials, or do I need to fork over more $$$ to get an old pro to show me the ropes? (Might do that one anyway.) I'm not looking for a complete gunsmithing course or setup, just interested in learning enough to make and install a barrel on a rifle. Thanks... DL

February 22, 2001, 03:03 PM	#5
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Contact the NMLRA (National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association). Ask to buy this month's and last month's copy of their magazine, Muzzle Blasts! Both discuss the rifling of a barrel blank with the last month issue discussing a rifling machine. If you can get a copy of Ned Robert's book, The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle, Roberts has an excellant description of how to use the rifling machine and setting up the twist. Conceptually, it's not hard to understand at all. Closed and continued at the Smithy Forum. [Edited by 4V50 Gary on 02-22-2001 at 09:36 PM]

February 23, 2001, 01:41 AM	#6
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	How many of you guys who say it's too expensive to make a barrel have heard of Harry Pope? Barrel making is not entirely beyond the grasp of a dedicated individual, being willing to learn the necessary skills and than doing are far more important variables in the equation than expensive tools. This applies to just about every skill in the book. Pope did all his work with machinery many of you wouldn't let in your shops, but how many of you would turn down a chance at a pope barrel?

February 23, 2001, 03:07 AM	#7
Dangus Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2000 Location: IA Posts: 1,907	I have made muzzle loader barrels before, about 3 total. It's a HUGE amount of work to handforge a barrel, and I will never go through that again after the first one. The rest I did with swages on a trip hammer using a mild steel mandrel, which I cooled in water as I worked to keep it from welding to the barrel. My technique for rifling was not normal though and I did it on the spur of the moment. I basically ran a square cutter tool through the barrel, which cuts at each of the corners(you could use a hex tool for this), and dragged it through with wire and a crank. It cut 4 deep, straight grooves in the barrel. Then I cleaned it out with barrel ream made for shotguns, you know those flex hone ones... and then simply heated the barrel up and twisted it carefully with the round mandrel still inside. I straightened it out afterwards and with a bit of work after that it became a muzzle loader barrel. Much harder than the swords I've made, much much more work. One of these has since gone on a rifle for a friend I owned a favor two, and the other are still sitting in a box with the stocks I have not finished yet(I will someday though!!). Now this above technique works GREAT for a muzzle loader, but for a modern rifle could use a more precision version of it. For the barrel forge two pieces of some allow steel(I imagine 5160 might work, or 6150(I think they make leaf springs out of this...) talk to a metalurgist and gunsmith for a better idea...) together around a mandrel and then tig weld the seam with a rod of the same material. Then forge it some more, run a more precision version of my ream idea through there, maybe one with six edges, and then clean and twist. The real part you'll have a hard time with is the heat treating. DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF THE FIRST TIME!!!! You MUST either be a master metal worker, or a master gunsmith to do this without some consulting. It's extremely dangerous in a modern gun to not treat the barrel correctly. In my muzzle loader, it's not a big deal, but even in a small calibur like .223, the wrong treatment could blow your gun up in your face. You will also have to use a more careful firing technique with the high pressure gun than with a muzzleloader. You can't have any pitting or excessive fire scale. You will also have to finish the barrel up a bit after the treating, just running a hone through it if nothing else. In disclaimer I've never done high pressure barrels before, and I am just some guy on the internet, so if you proceed to try my ideas out, be sure that a master gunsmith keeps an eye on what you are doing. You can screw around with these ideas to your heart's content, but do not stick them in a gun that you, or more importantly, someone else, may use before a master gunsmith looks them over with a magnifier. It would also not hurt at all to have a rockwell tester available, and also to find a place to x-ray the finished barrels for you. Ok, that out of the way... just buy a barrel...

February 23, 2001, 09:07 AM	#8
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	DL, to answer your question. You buy a blank, contour, thread, chamber and fit to the action. If you have access to a lathe large enough for barrel work you can do it. George

February 23, 2001, 11:13 AM	#9
DL Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: South Florida Posts: 27	Thanks for all the responses. I'm getting the impression that making a barrel for a hunting or target rifle from scratch would be ridiculously expensive. In my ignorance I was envisioning buying a length of appropriate steel, spending my side-job savings on a much better lathe (am considering that anyway), and drilling away. Checking the price lists for a couple of the barrel makers I've been referred to here, I can see that just buying the barrel I want and finding something else to do for a hobby might be a little less stressful on the wallet... DL

February 23, 2001, 02:38 PM	#10
Dangus Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2000 Location: IA Posts: 1,907	Just for reference... A coolant feed stock-removal drillbit of only 6 inches in length can cost as much as 600 dollars, depending on the size. Now imagine the costs of one long enough for a barrel. These drill bits are like gold value and if you break one you will probably kill yourself out of sheer horror...