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Old July 29, 2007, 12:32 PM   #1
reloader1979
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Ruger Old Army accuracy

BP pistol shooting is on the rise at the range I use and I have to say that it has a certain appeal. Unfortunately I have no pistol experiance due to not getting into shooting until after the handgun ban. Now about half a dozen lads have been and bought themselves Ruger old army .45's and keep singing there praises as the stongest and most accurate BP pistol there is, and while I agree that they are handsomely made I have yet to see their awesome accuracy that everone bangs on about. They shoot with round balls and conical bullets from Lee moulds using mostly Triple7, and at 25feet tin cans prove more than a challenge from a two handed seated shot off of a range bag, these guns seem to throw groups as big as 4-6" at 25 feet. I can throw empty .44mag shells more accurately. These blokes can shoot though, most of them competed at bisley some time during their life, and before slide actions and double acting revolvers were banned they could hold it with the best. I think they're just happy to have handguns again and are ignoring their shotgun like accuracy. I know we are all new to BP at the range but I questioned if they should be measureing their powder more accurately than shot flask charges, needless to say I got THAT FROWN and skulked back to the benches. Now is the Ruger old army really an accurate gun and are these lads doing something wrong, or is this kind of grouping to be expected from these guns ?. I really want to shoot BP but I dont want a gun that is more accurate if you throw it than shoot it. I figure some of you lads across the pond have the required experiance to help me out.
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Old July 29, 2007, 01:10 PM   #2
Diggers
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That FROWN. LOL! I think your right, they are just happy to be shooting a hand gun again and how dare you question any thing about what they are doing! I don't know anything about black powder but 4 to 6 inch groups at 25 feet seem really bad. Any change from one load to the next (as in the amount of powder bullet weight and so on.) is going to make the bullet hit the target in a different place.

So, yeah if they want accuracy then each load is going to have to be as close to a standard as they can get it.

Why don't you show them how its done.
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Old July 29, 2007, 01:32 PM   #3
45Marlin carbine
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they are doing something wrong, will not hazard a guess but mine does 3" groups off rest at 25 yard line and would do better I think. send them to me, I'll give 'em a workout!
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Old July 29, 2007, 01:54 PM   #4
DPris
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Looking up my notes, my fixed-sight 5-inch OA back in '02 when I was working with it (400 rounds fired over several days with a variety of powders & charges) produced several six-shot 25 yard benched groups of under two inches, and a few at 1.5 inches. That gun is more accurate than my .45 Colt Blackhawk.
It may take some experimenting to find the right combination of cap, powder, and charge weight, but the guns are typically quite accurate once you do.
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Old July 29, 2007, 02:00 PM   #5
DMZX
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I can easily shoot 2", 5 shot groups, with my ROA off-hand, at 25'. At 25 yards the groups go to 4-6" off-hand. Speer .454 RB over 35 gr of fff.

One of my secrets: I had the trigger worked.

Best accuracy can be found shooting Speer 230 gr LRN over 5.3 gr of Trail Boss in a .45 Colt Conversion Cylinder.
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Old July 29, 2007, 06:04 PM   #6
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ROA's typically like round balls better than conicals. Both of mine are capable of putting 6 balls into an inch, center to center, at 25 yards from a solid rest, meaning the guns are capable of it, not necessarily me. Two inches is easy. As much as I dislike Pyrodex, it seems to have a very slight accuracy advantage over gennywine black in my two ROA's.
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Old July 29, 2007, 09:04 PM   #7
mykeal
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Two things. Well, three, really:

1. Your mates are too forgiving of mediocre performance and need to work harder. Those numbers are not acceptable from an ROA. Except for someone who just wants to make smoke and noise without regard to the results.

2. As Dpris says, they need to work at getting the right powder/ball charge for accuracy. It often happens that people new to c&b revolvers fill the chamber with powder and expect that load to perform; almost all c&b revolvers are most accurate with less than the maximum possible load, and the results they are seeing would indicate that's the problem (to me, anyway). Here's the drill: start with 22 gr fffg and a .457 round ball. Shoot 5 rounds, change targets, clean the bore, load 25 gr fffg under the same ball, shoot five more, change targets, clean, load 27 gr fffg, shoot, change, clean, load 29 gr (or 30) gr fffg, etc. Do this all the way up to the maximum load, although I predict you will stop earlier as it becomes obvious the accuracy peaked and has started back down at some point.

3. As Jbar4ranch says, use round balls for accuracy in most (if not all) c&b revolvers. You can do better with conicals than they are doing, but round balls will outshoot conicals in revolvers.
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Old July 31, 2007, 04:54 PM   #8
reloader1979
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Glad to hear that these guns can shoot. I believe what you're saying is right on the mark and that it's down to the consistency of the powder charge. I watch these lads with their homemade powder dippers made from cut down 308win shells and grin, If you have to weigh every rifle charge and know that half a grains inaccuracy will lift a bullet out of it's group at 100yrds then what on earth do you expect from throwing guesstimated scoops of powder only calibrated by being held up to the light and viewed through one squinted eye while nodding sagely into the chamber of your gun !

I have also heard that tuning such things as the timing of the cylinder, the end float of the chamber, and possibly swapping the nipples for after market items with smaller flash holes also make a difference, does anybody have any feed back on these.

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Old July 31, 2007, 08:31 PM   #9
mykeal
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Well, theoretically faulty cylinder timing can foul up accuracy by causing the ball to be deformed as it enters the forcing cone. Also theoretically, excessive cylinder end shake ('end float') can allow significant pressure to vent, thus robbing muzzle velocity and affecting accuracy. And some people claim that a hotter ignition spark will result in more even and perhaps faster powder burn, thus higher pressures, muzzle velocities and better accuracy.

I have no numbers to verify any of those claims. The first two appear logical to me if I extend them to the absurd and consider the physics involved, and thus I believe they can have the effects claimed. I'm not sure that changing the nipples for ones with smaller ignition channels will really create a hotter ignition, or that a hotter ignition spark will significantly improve the powder burn as claimed. I don't disagree with the claim either; I just don't know. What I know about ignition trains (and I have designed both unsuccessful and successful ones) isn't sufficient to tell me how to answer that.
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Old April 7, 2008, 11:39 AM   #10
Daniel Shays
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I am just glad to know someone is shooting something in our old mother country. Loading using a powder flask is fine, as is using a dipper. BP and substitutes are not nearly as fussy as smokeless powder. A grain or 2 could cause destruction or death in smokeless firearms, with BP not so much. More precision is alway better but it is far, far less important with BP.

One suggestion for obtaining the ultimate in accuracy is to dump the whole pound in a glass bowl and mix with a wood spoon to get the tiny fragments and crumbs and "powder" that settles to the bottom of the can in shipping to mix with the rest. Use a brass or soft metal funnel when you put it back in the can. NO STATIC!!.

I do not need anything like this kind of accuracy. I find "minute of tin can" is good enough for me. More fun too.
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Old April 7, 2008, 08:50 PM   #11
robhof
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robhof

I also found the ball to be more accurate in my ROA. I started with conicals and couldnt get under 2" at 25' from sandbag. With 457 cast and 25gr FFFFg, I get 1" to 1 1/2" at 25'. I did firelap the barrel; as I found it to be quite rough when I pushed a pure lead conical down the barrel to measure the bore. It cleans up much easier now too.
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Old April 7, 2008, 11:22 PM   #12
Jbar4Ranch
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Since my previous post way back in July, I've picked up FIVE more fixed sight ROA's and they all prefer a round ball to conicals.
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Old April 8, 2008, 06:35 AM   #13
mykeal
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Just curious...

Robhof - do you use FFFFg or was that a typo?
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Old April 8, 2008, 07:46 AM   #14
reloader1979
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Well I'm happy now that I know they shoot, and they seem to have a big following, only one problem now !. Since I started this thread I've been reading up on them as much as possible, being that an Old army will be my first revolver I wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing. Getting hold of a hand gun in England is hard work and I only recieved the variatoin on my license recently, now sods law sticks it's nose in and Ruger discontinue the Old army and drive second hand prices up. So my next question is.......... Does anybody know of a reasonably priced gun for sale near them. I have my preferences for a stainless target model but would be interested in anything you know of. I'm situated in Devon England. Or does anybody know how you import guns across the pond.
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Old April 8, 2008, 09:22 AM   #15
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"New" ones are still available.

It would appear that they are no longer made. However, two week ago, I talked with a factory rep. and they are still available. Gave me a new price of $416.00 for a blue 5-1/2" model. He also stated that the stainless steels are available as well. You need to find a dealer and run this to ground. I understand that they are not listed in their website and also understand that indeed, [COLOR="Red"]they are available "NEW"[/COLOR]

Be safe
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Old April 8, 2008, 10:52 AM   #16
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I've found it will hold the 9-ring on the 25m UIT pistol PL7 without too much trouble. This is the adjustable sight version with some Pachmayers.
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Old April 10, 2008, 12:22 PM   #17
robhof
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robhof

Yes I do use 4f powder in my ROA. with 25gr I get the best accuracy. I played with 2 and 3f, 777 and Pyrodex and got the best groups with the 4f, that I happen to have for priming my flinter. Been using it ever since.
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