Stupid,stupid,stupid.

ATTICUS · October 31, 2001, 08:15 AM

The Columbus Dispatch (hard copy only) is reporting today that two cars containing six middle Eastern men were stopped somewhere in the midwest. They had on them: Israeli passports, diagrams of a nuclear power plant in Florida, diagrams of the trans Alaska pipeline, boxcutters, and assorted "suspicious" tools in the car. They were turned over to the INS who promply released them after confirming the authenticity of the passports. The Feds are now scrambling to find them, but suspect they have switched cars, and may have fled to Canada. I can't wait to hear the reasoning behind this one.

Coronach · October 31, 2001, 08:58 AM

They probably had nothing to hold them on. I'm not sure how the new anti-terror legislation and policies/procedures impacts this, but for YEARS cops have been letting people go in scenarios not unlike this. Sure, their goals were more modest and usually aimed at theft/burglary and not blowing big stuff up, but the idea is the same. Shut your yap, get released.

Mike

ATTICUS · October 31, 2001, 09:14 AM

I'm sure you're right, but you would have to think that the local PD and the INS would be thinking," HMMMMM maybe we should talk to the FBI or Tom Ridges office before we cut these guys loose. Then again, maybe they did, and learned that these guys were Mossad agents sent here as consultants. We'll probably never know unless something goes boom.

Ledbetter · October 31, 2001, 01:30 PM

Did somebody forget to tell the INS there's a war against terrorist spies going on?

:barf:

xxena · October 31, 2001, 01:48 PM

WHY are we the ONLY country in the world that allows OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS guaranteed to CITIZENS to extend to people that ARE NOT citizens of this country...that is STUPID.

If an American had done something like this in another country they would be burning them at the stake, disembowling them or letting them rot in some horrible prison for years.....

BUT NO we are going to let everyone be treated like this is the world's biggest country club and our prisons are like Club Fed.

The gaggle of them they just found guilty for the embassy bombing get life without parole in Club Fed...big deal. They get 3 meals a day - they're protected from other prisoners, they have heat in the winter, AC in the summer, recreation, movies, a library, continuing education if they want.....they are hardly being punished for taking the lives willingly of Americans and others....to them its a joke and they will be treated very well on OUR TAX DOLLARS and the tax dollars of the families of the people they killed - isn't that lovely.

Maybe the Mexicans are not that off base by being as unhuman as they are to people that come into their country and commit horrible crimes.

You can bet your bootie that the American Idiots that were just caught in Mexico trying to come across the border with that horde of illegal arms, mostly automatic weapons and machine guns...will wish they had turbans on their heads and would be treated like we're treating the scum that's killed our fellow citizens....cuz what the Mexican authorities are going to do to them both in and out of prison is hardly going to be like a trip to Cancun and fun in the sun.....

WE have some really screwed up priorities in this country at times....espeically when it comes to punishment for people that prey upon us.

ATTICUS · October 31, 2001, 01:57 PM

Coronach: Forgive my ignorance... but do foreign "guests" have the same constitutional rights that we do? If yes, how are the Feds holding all of those "witnesses" that were picked up a month ago?

dinosaur · October 31, 2001, 04:11 PM

on the morning of 9/11 videotaping the attacks." At least I hope so.

Seeker · October 31, 2001, 04:51 PM

xxena,

The Rights we enjoy in the US are Inalienable Rights, granted by our creator, which extend to all men (read as humankind). Our government recognizes and protects (is supposed to anyway) these inalienable rights. These rights aren't given to us by the government and can't (in theory, anyway) be taken by the government in that they are inalienable.

Quote:

Israeli passports, diagrams of a nuclear power plant in Florida, diagrams of the trans Alaska pipeline, boxcutters, and assorted "suspicious" tools

Israeli passports - perhaps they are Israelis.
Diagrams? Where they in a travel brochure? A text book belonging to an engineering student?
Boxcutters? The soccer-mom scary word of the year, does the meaning include Carpenters Knife or the razorblade holder that I use to build model airplanes?
Assorted "suspicious" tools? Does that mean monkeywrench, philips/slotted screwdriver, dykes, voltmeter these could all be "suspicious" tools.

People in this country are innocent until proven guilty, as these guys hadn't done anything illegal and were not wanted whay should they be held or "Detained"?

Quote:

how are the Feds holding all of those "witnesses" that were picked up a month ago?

I've been wondering this myself, and suspect extra-legal reasons.

ATTICUS · October 31, 2001, 05:41 PM

Seeker: Apparently these people cannot be found by the Feds at present, and they seem to be very interested in finding them. One would think that these people could be readily located by the FBI, if the passports, ID's and license plate numbers (most likely rentals) were genuine. I think there is more to this story then was released - but then I haven't seen the story at any other news sources today.

KSFreeman · October 31, 2001, 06:58 PM

What rubbish. There must be some inherent need to spread like silliness.

This didn't happen. I'm going back to cleaning my Glock 7 and scanning the skies for black helicopters.

ATTICUS · October 31, 2001, 07:35 PM

It could be rubbish, but it did make the front cover (and page 2) of the Columbus Dispatch today. I just read it again a few minutes ago. It is a strange article though. It is from Knight Ridder, uses quotes from unidentified sources, doesn't specifically name any locations and doesn't name any names. It does say that FBI officials and AG Ashcroft went ballistic when they got the news. Supposedly this happened last weekend and was one of the reasons for the generic terrorist warning issued this week.

I didn't write the damned article, I'm just reporting it.

xxena · October 31, 2001, 07:50 PM

Seeker:

Maybe so - and to a degree I do agree with you - but It makes me want to puke knowing my 60 hour work weeks are going to take care of this scum sitting in our prisions and being kept alive and well kept on MY TAX DOLLARS for killing Americans becuase it was sport to them.

Explain to me how that is JUSTICE either for the victims and their families or for the rest of us that go to work each day and have to support this waste of 02.

When my parents immigrated here from Scandanavia and my husband nad his family from Poland it was NOT open door policy - they had to have "sponsoars" in the form of family or friends that vouched for them, they had to prove they had living accomodations and a job waiting from them. They were Proud to be made Americans, proud to Salute our flag, sign our Anthem and to speak English, pay their taxes and fight in wars with other Americans (Korea and Viet Nam)....

I resent this scum being treated like people that are proud to be here and defend their country and die for it as naturalized citizens.

Coronach · October 31, 2001, 10:49 PM

Don't feel bad- to tell you the truth, I have no idea myself whether resident aliens or illegal aliens have precisely the same constitutional rights as a full-blown citizen. As a matter of course we treat them exactly as we would treat 'one of us,' and I'm sure thats pretty much the same all over the USA.

I'm not sure what the anti-terror legislation has done to investigative detentions, but up until the 11th you could only hold someone for a reasonable (defined by the circumstances) amount of time during an ONGOING investigation of criminal activity. That is, I could hold a prospective shoplifter long enough for the store owner to be driven up to ID the guy, etc etc etc. After that, I have to either poop or get off the pot (charge him or let him go).

Basically, it sounds like the INS held onto these guys long enough to run them for warrants, verify their IDs, rattle them enough to see if something gave...and it didn't. Nothing they did or possessed amounted to a crime. They probably clammed up and didn't incriminate themselves. So, unless the powers of law enforcement have changed...cya 'round.

And now everyone is bellyaching that the cops had to let a bad guy go.

Well, go back to that story and substitute 'ATF' for 'INS' and tell me how you feel now. Consistency. Those who would sacrifice liberty for security...etc etc etc.

Probably what is needed is a paradign shift- we are still treating the problem of terrorists on the ground in the USA as a law-enforcement issue. Framing the problem in that manner will invoke (and rightly so) constitutional questions and issues of liberty and personal freedom. Framing it as a matter of espionage/sabotage conjures up a more 'warlike' feel...but where is the line drawn? Are all non-citizens to be afforded a different set of protections under US law? What about resident vs non-resident vs illegal aliens? And if you draw the line at citizen/alien-status, does that mean if the carload of arabs with nuke plant scematics contained half citizens and half aliens, you have to let one half go, but keep the other guys? I dunno. Tough questions.

Mike

Songdog · November 1, 2001, 12:09 AM

xxena is right: aliens (non-citizens) don't have "constitutional rights"

aliens can't own a gun - you must be a citizen and a resident of a state (there are some exceptions, but it ain't a right)

aliens can be deported, U.S. citizens can't

The Constitution limits the power of government, it does not grant rights. The wonderful "unalienable rights" phrase came from the Declaration of Independence (Jefferson, a hero of mine)

U.S. Courts treat all people on our shores as if they had constitutional protection - but that isn't because of anything that is written in the Constitution.

"The enemy is right here among us, and we are pretending we don't know who they are."

Jeff Thomas · November 1, 2001, 12:40 AM

Count me as another skeptic on this report. Diagrams of the oil line, nuclear power plant and ... boxcutters? Did Islamic fundamentalists do a tactical study, and determine that boxcutters were the most dangerous weapons available? Were they thinking of doing the FL powerplant in the winter, and the AK oil pipeline in the summer so they could enjoy the weather?

This sounds a bit overdone. We'll see.

Regards from AZ.

David Park · November 1, 2001, 01:42 AM

FBI seeks 6 men who had nuclear, pipeline information
http://web.realcities.com/content/rc...1956602841.htm

It is oddly written, and covers a lot of ground. Here's the bit on the 6 men:

Quote:

As the nation again stands on high alert, the FBI is searching for six men stopped by police in the Midwest last weekend but released — even though they possessed photographs and descriptions of a nuclear power plant in Florida and the Trans-Alaska pipeline, a senior law enforcement official said Tuesday.
[...]
The incident in the Midwest apparently contributed to the new terror warning. The six men stopped by police were traveling in groups of three in two white sedans, said the senior law enforcement official, who requested anonymity.

In addition to the photographs and other suspicious material, they carried "box cutters and other equipment," the official said. They appeared to be from the Middle East and held Israeli passports.

They were let go after the Immigration and Naturalization Service determined the passports were valid and that the men had entered the United States legally, the official said.

A spokesman for the INS called the report unfounded. "We have absolutely no information at this point in time to substantiate that story," said INS spokesman Russ Bergeron.

It could not be learned in what state the six men were stopped or how they aroused suspicion. It was not known if their true identities matched those on the passports, or why the FBI was not releasing their names or descriptions.

Investigators think the men almost certainly have changed cars by now and have fled to Canada or elsewhere.

Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller were "furious" that the INS allowed the men to be released without holding them at least until the FBI could be consulted, the official said.

Seeker · November 1, 2001, 01:50 AM

my bad.

Quote:

The Constitution limits the power of government, it does not grant rights. The wonderful "unalienable rights" phrase came from the Declaration of Independence

xxena · November 1, 2001, 08:21 AM

Seeker:

Don't misunderstand the point I'm making - I would not like to see us revert to the inhuman and terror tactics of other countries when it comes to non citizens that commit crimes overall. Like anything there are degrees.

There is a big difference between some guy that sneaks over the border from Mexico, works here and then is caught shoflifting or steals a car. Not that either of these crimes should not be punished, but there is a big difference from those that came into this country illegally from somewhere in the Middle East and helped to carry out the plans of September 11 and further if they can get away with it. Or those that purposely bombed American Embassies to kill Americans and anyone else in the way or the Attack on the USS COLE.

In my mind, MURDER is MURDER, be it you put a gun to someone's head in a robbery and pull the trigger or you fly a jet with passengers into a high rise building and kills thousands more. The ONLY difference being if you're a citizen then we due process of law here and you are subject to the life as it may be in American Prisons. A non citizen should NOT be guaranteed the same absolute protections, espeically people here illegally. Remember all the cries for illegal detainment as they were rounding these jerks up - and the liberals screaming about their Constitutional Rights for being held over 48 hours - WHAT rights they are NOT citizens and they are here illegally with illegal documents - what part of CRIMINAL does not register here with people ?

Treating them this way is like the stories you hear of criminals that are injured during the commission of their crime, then turn around and sue their victims and some idiot ultra liberal judge or jury gives them a cash award from the victim so the person that is truly the victim is victimized twice....its the same thing with these terrorists. They kill Americans as sport and then we turn around and treat them humanely and with respect in our prisons going as far as to "protect them"....from harm from other prisoners or anyone that would do them harm.

WHY ? ....if you're so worried about their safety why jail them at all - why not let them go free and do whatever the hell they want. This throws us back into this same ridiculous liberal loop about holding the rights of the guility over those of their victims.

These people made a conscieous decision to kill people that they did not agree with politically and for religious reasons. They had NO regard that the people they killed had just as much right to their beliefs as they did and when we protect them - we are saying that their victims lives were not worth the life of the killer. What kind of message does that send ?

Execute them....would probably be the best thing but then we fall into their whole martyrdom trap....so I'd throw them into the worst prision in the country and let them fend for themselves....they survive it - great - they don't - too bad .....and I would not spend one dime of taxpayers dollars to do it. They want to eat etc., make them work for that as compensation for their labor.

How many times are we going to turn the other cheek so more will die until we realize that this is just what they want and we're playing right into their hands....

HAD a gunowner gone off the wall and on a shooting rampage and killed just 1 person, they'd be lynching him publically by this point and cries for more would be on the way.......the antigunners are already screaming for more and more gun control due to terrorism attacks which have absolutely nothing to do with guns and I don't see anyone getting in the way and stopping their ridiculous demands at this point.....

Airline pilots want to be armed in the cockpit for safety - but NO we cannot have that - guns kill....I come to find out that many of the guard at the airports don't even have mags in their rifles much less a bullet in the chamber cuz someone might get shot - if they're guarding what the hell are the supposed to do - smack someone with the butt end ? We don't trust our pilots to be armed, we don't trust our national guard with bullets while on patrol to protect us, all the talk of air marshalls yet few seem to be deployed.....but we're going to make sure that the terrorists that kill our fellow citizens here and abroad are treated like Grandma at Sunday dinner..... we've not come very far from the last 8 years have we....we are still perpetuating that " be a victim role" and " the poor poor criminal senario".....

October 31, 2001, 08:15 AM	#1
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	Stupid,stupid,stupid. The Columbus Dispatch (hard copy only) is reporting today that two cars containing six middle Eastern men were stopped somewhere in the midwest. They had on them: Israeli passports, diagrams of a nuclear power plant in Florida, diagrams of the trans Alaska pipeline, boxcutters, and assorted "suspicious" tools in the car. They were turned over to the INS who promply released them after confirming the authenticity of the passports. The Feds are now scrambling to find them, but suspect they have switched cars, and may have fled to Canada. I can't wait to hear the reasoning behind this one. __________________ Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Mark Twain

October 31, 2001, 08:58 AM	#2
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Damned Constitution strikes again! They probably had nothing to hold them on. I'm not sure how the new anti-terror legislation and policies/procedures impacts this, but for YEARS cops have been letting people go in scenarios not unlike this. Sure, their goals were more modest and usually aimed at theft/burglary and not blowing big stuff up, but the idea is the same. Shut your yap, get released. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

October 31, 2001, 09:14 AM	#3
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	I'm sure you're right, but you would have to think that the local PD and the INS would be thinking," HMMMMM maybe we should talk to the FBI or Tom Ridges office before we cut these guys loose. Then again, maybe they did, and learned that these guys were Mossad agents sent here as consultants. We'll probably never know unless something goes boom. __________________ Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Mark Twain

October 31, 2001, 01:48 PM	#5
xxena Member Join Date: October 23, 2001 Location: Illinois - NW of Chicago Posts: 91	WHY are we the ONLY country in the world that allows OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS guaranteed to CITIZENS to extend to people that ARE NOT citizens of this country...that is STUPID. If an American had done something like this in another country they would be burning them at the stake, disembowling them or letting them rot in some horrible prison for years..... BUT NO we are going to let everyone be treated like this is the world's biggest country club and our prisons are like Club Fed. The gaggle of them they just found guilty for the embassy bombing get life without parole in Club Fed...big deal. They get 3 meals a day - they're protected from other prisoners, they have heat in the winter, AC in the summer, recreation, movies, a library, continuing education if they want.....they are hardly being punished for taking the lives willingly of Americans and others....to them its a joke and they will be treated very well on OUR TAX DOLLARS and the tax dollars of the families of the people they killed - isn't that lovely. Maybe the Mexicans are not that off base by being as unhuman as they are to people that come into their country and commit horrible crimes. You can bet your bootie that the American Idiots that were just caught in Mexico trying to come across the border with that horde of illegal arms, mostly automatic weapons and machine guns...will wish they had turbans on their heads and would be treated like we're treating the scum that's killed our fellow citizens....cuz what the Mexican authorities are going to do to them both in and out of prison is hardly going to be like a trip to Cancun and fun in the sun..... WE have some really screwed up priorities in this country at times....espeically when it comes to punishment for people that prey upon us. __________________ We are all born free under our personal God and mother nature, only other men can enslave us, if we allow it ! - A woman can never own too much jewelry or too many .45's.......

October 31, 2001, 01:57 PM	#6
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	Coronach: Forgive my ignorance... but do foreign "guests" have the same constitutional rights that we do? If yes, how are the Feds holding all of those "witnesses" that were picked up a month ago? __________________ Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Mark Twain

October 31, 2001, 01:30 PM	#4
Ledbetter Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: California USA Posts: 4,533	Did somebody forget to tell the INS there's a war against terrorist spies going on? :barf:

October 31, 2001, 04:11 PM	#7
dinosaur Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: NE Pa. Posts: 1,245	This sounds like the "3 Arabs in the white van in Liberty Park on the morning of 9/11 videotaping the attacks." At least I hope so.

October 31, 2001, 05:41 PM	#9
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	Seeker: Apparently these people cannot be found by the Feds at present, and they seem to be very interested in finding them. One would think that these people could be readily located by the FBI, if the passports, ID's and license plate numbers (most likely rentals) were genuine. I think there is more to this story then was released - but then I haven't seen the story at any other news sources today. __________________ Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Mark Twain

October 31, 2001, 06:58 PM	#10
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	What rubbish. There must be some inherent need to spread like silliness. This didn't happen. I'm going back to cleaning my Glock 7 and scanning the skies for black helicopters.

October 31, 2001, 07:35 PM	#11
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	It could be rubbish, but it did make the front cover (and page 2) of the Columbus Dispatch today. I just read it again a few minutes ago. It is a strange article though. It is from Knight Ridder, uses quotes from unidentified sources, doesn't specifically name any locations and doesn't name any names. It does say that FBI officials and AG Ashcroft went ballistic when they got the news. Supposedly this happened last weekend and was one of the reasons for the generic terrorist warning issued this week. I didn't write the damned article, I'm just reporting it. __________________ Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Mark Twain

October 31, 2001, 07:50 PM	#12
xxena Member Join Date: October 23, 2001 Location: Illinois - NW of Chicago Posts: 91	Seeker: Maybe so - and to a degree I do agree with you - but It makes me want to puke knowing my 60 hour work weeks are going to take care of this scum sitting in our prisions and being kept alive and well kept on MY TAX DOLLARS for killing Americans becuase it was sport to them. Explain to me how that is JUSTICE either for the victims and their families or for the rest of us that go to work each day and have to support this waste of 02. When my parents immigrated here from Scandanavia and my husband nad his family from Poland it was NOT open door policy - they had to have "sponsoars" in the form of family or friends that vouched for them, they had to prove they had living accomodations and a job waiting from them. They were Proud to be made Americans, proud to Salute our flag, sign our Anthem and to speak English, pay their taxes and fight in wars with other Americans (Korea and Viet Nam).... I resent this scum being treated like people that are proud to be here and defend their country and die for it as naturalized citizens. __________________ We are all born free under our personal God and mother nature, only other men can enslave us, if we allow it ! - A woman can never own too much jewelry or too many .45's.......

October 31, 2001, 10:49 PM	#13
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Atticus: Don't feel bad- to tell you the truth, I have no idea myself whether resident aliens or illegal aliens have precisely the same constitutional rights as a full-blown citizen. As a matter of course we treat them exactly as we would treat 'one of us,' and I'm sure thats pretty much the same all over the USA. I'm not sure what the anti-terror legislation has done to investigative detentions, but up until the 11th you could only hold someone for a reasonable (defined by the circumstances) amount of time during an ONGOING investigation of criminal activity. That is, I could hold a prospective shoplifter long enough for the store owner to be driven up to ID the guy, etc etc etc. After that, I have to either poop or get off the pot (charge him or let him go). Basically, it sounds like the INS held onto these guys long enough to run them for warrants, verify their IDs, rattle them enough to see if something gave...and it didn't. Nothing they did or possessed amounted to a crime. They probably clammed up and didn't incriminate themselves. So, unless the powers of law enforcement have changed...cya 'round. And now everyone is bellyaching that the cops had to let a bad guy go. Well, go back to that story and substitute 'ATF' for 'INS' and tell me how you feel now. Consistency. Those who would sacrifice liberty for security...etc etc etc. Probably what is needed is a paradign shift- we are still treating the problem of terrorists on the ground in the USA as a law-enforcement issue. Framing the problem in that manner will invoke (and rightly so) constitutional questions and issues of liberty and personal freedom. Framing it as a matter of espionage/sabotage conjures up a more 'warlike' feel...but where is the line drawn? Are all non-citizens to be afforded a different set of protections under US law? What about resident vs non-resident vs illegal aliens? And if you draw the line at citizen/alien-status, does that mean if the carload of arabs with nuke plant scematics contained half citizens and half aliens, you have to let one half go, but keep the other guys? I dunno. Tough questions. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

November 1, 2001, 12:09 AM	#14
Songdog Member Join Date: October 10, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 72	xxena is right: aliens (non-citizens) don't have "constitutional rights" aliens can't own a gun - you must be a citizen and a resident of a state (there are some exceptions, but it ain't a right) aliens can be deported, U.S. citizens can't The Constitution limits the power of government, it does not grant rights. The wonderful "unalienable rights" phrase came from the Declaration of Independence (Jefferson, a hero of mine) U.S. Courts treat all people on our shores as if they had constitutional protection - but that isn't because of anything that is written in the Constitution. "The enemy is right here among us, and we are pretending we don't know who they are."

November 1, 2001, 12:40 AM	#15
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	Count me as another skeptic on this report. Diagrams of the oil line, nuclear power plant and ... boxcutters? Did Islamic fundamentalists do a tactical study, and determine that boxcutters were the most dangerous weapons available? Were they thinking of doing the FL powerplant in the winter, and the AK oil pipeline in the summer so they could enjoy the weather? This sounds a bit overdone. We'll see. Regards from AZ. __________________ I refuse to live in a state which fails to recognize my family's fundamental right of self defense. I refuse to give that state my labor, my taxes, or any other support for such an uncivilized and barbaric policy. In other words ... Texas, Yes ... California, No.

November 1, 2001, 08:21 AM	#18
xxena Member Join Date: October 23, 2001 Location: Illinois - NW of Chicago Posts: 91	Seeker: Don't misunderstand the point I'm making - I would not like to see us revert to the inhuman and terror tactics of other countries when it comes to non citizens that commit crimes overall. Like anything there are degrees. There is a big difference between some guy that sneaks over the border from Mexico, works here and then is caught shoflifting or steals a car. Not that either of these crimes should not be punished, but there is a big difference from those that came into this country illegally from somewhere in the Middle East and helped to carry out the plans of September 11 and further if they can get away with it. Or those that purposely bombed American Embassies to kill Americans and anyone else in the way or the Attack on the USS COLE. In my mind, MURDER is MURDER, be it you put a gun to someone's head in a robbery and pull the trigger or you fly a jet with passengers into a high rise building and kills thousands more. The ONLY difference being if you're a citizen then we due process of law here and you are subject to the life as it may be in American Prisons. A non citizen should NOT be guaranteed the same absolute protections, espeically people here illegally. Remember all the cries for illegal detainment as they were rounding these jerks up - and the liberals screaming about their Constitutional Rights for being held over 48 hours - WHAT rights they are NOT citizens and they are here illegally with illegal documents - what part of CRIMINAL does not register here with people ? Treating them this way is like the stories you hear of criminals that are injured during the commission of their crime, then turn around and sue their victims and some idiot ultra liberal judge or jury gives them a cash award from the victim so the person that is truly the victim is victimized twice....its the same thing with these terrorists. They kill Americans as sport and then we turn around and treat them humanely and with respect in our prisons going as far as to "protect them"....from harm from other prisoners or anyone that would do them harm. WHY ? ....if you're so worried about their safety why jail them at all - why not let them go free and do whatever the hell they want. This throws us back into this same ridiculous liberal loop about holding the rights of the guility over those of their victims. These people made a conscieous decision to kill people that they did not agree with politically and for religious reasons. They had NO regard that the people they killed had just as much right to their beliefs as they did and when we protect them - we are saying that their victims lives were not worth the life of the killer. What kind of message does that send ? Execute them....would probably be the best thing but then we fall into their whole martyrdom trap....so I'd throw them into the worst prision in the country and let them fend for themselves....they survive it - great - they don't - too bad .....and I would not spend one dime of taxpayers dollars to do it. They want to eat etc., make them work for that as compensation for their labor. How many times are we going to turn the other cheek so more will die until we realize that this is just what they want and we're playing right into their hands.... HAD a gunowner gone off the wall and on a shooting rampage and killed just 1 person, they'd be lynching him publically by this point and cries for more would be on the way.......the antigunners are already screaming for more and more gun control due to terrorism attacks which have absolutely nothing to do with guns and I don't see anyone getting in the way and stopping their ridiculous demands at this point..... Airline pilots want to be armed in the cockpit for safety - but NO we cannot have that - guns kill....I come to find out that many of the guard at the airports don't even have mags in their rifles much less a bullet in the chamber cuz someone might get shot - if they're guarding what the hell are the supposed to do - smack someone with the butt end ? We don't trust our pilots to be armed, we don't trust our national guard with bullets while on patrol to protect us, all the talk of air marshalls yet few seem to be deployed.....but we're going to make sure that the terrorists that kill our fellow citizens here and abroad are treated like Grandma at Sunday dinner..... we've not come very far from the last 8 years have we....we are still perpetuating that " be a victim role" and " the poor poor criminal senario"..... __________________ We are all born free under our personal God and mother nature, only other men can enslave us, if we allow it ! - A woman can never own too much jewelry or too many .45's.......