Do Master Class + shooters actually use sights??

TVDean · March 28, 2001, 04:21 PM

.....or is their super quick accuracy a product of the integration between their handgun and natural pointing instinct.

I don't see how a mortal human being can honestly shoot as fast and accurate as a Master or Grand Master if he or she was actually seeing the sights every shot.

I'm new to this sport and not all that good, but I have had a few good stages. It seems to me that the best hit factors I've earned were from the "instinctual pointing" of the firearm after I have seen where the first bullet's point of impact was.

Now of course we need sights for those 15+yd shots, but anything under that it seems that this is where the Master class shooters prevail. Are they point shooting? I think they are.

Comments?

banjobart · March 28, 2001, 07:47 PM

They're using the front sight.

TVDean · March 28, 2001, 09:58 PM

Yonshiu Hirigotoo said, "There would be no front sight if it were not for the rear sight

In this Yin-Yang statement, Yon desribes that the front sight's perspective is worthless without the rear sights contribution to the total sight picture.

So if infact the sights are seen, the rear must be in there somewhere. That takes time.

Hemphill · March 28, 2001, 10:18 PM

The masters and grand masters I have talked with say that they do use the sights, all the time. The only thing is that they don't use them in only one way. One guy in particular told me to shoot in every imaginable condition and remember what I needed to see to get the hits. Then remember that and apply it at the right time. For example, he said a rough focus on the frontsight at close range, looking at the exact area where the bullets need to go, and a hard focus on the top center of the front sight at 50 yards.

Ron Ankeny · March 28, 2001, 11:01 PM

Until you get around to buying Brian Enos' book, I'll share a few quotes:

Type One Focus: "For the single target at extreme close range where I need an extremely fast hit, there is no directed focus on the sights or the target. There may be some focus on the sights or target, but it really doesn't matter."

Type Two Focus: "When I am faced with multiple targets at extreme close range and, as above, I need extreme speed, I first confirm correct body and gun alignment(my index) on the first target, then I simply focus to the scoring surface on each target. The sights may or may not be in my peripheral vision."

Type Three Focus: "This is the focus I use for most targets. For what I call standard practical shooting, my focus goes from targets to sights on each shot."

Type Four Focus: "Type four shooting is now where I more closely follow the rule of focusing on the front sight through the course. And I keep that focus to the point where I see the sight lift when the gun recoils. I see the targets only in the background."

Type Five Focus: "When I am faced with an extremely difficult shot - one that is at extreme long range or one that offers an extremely small scoring surface - my focus may shift more to trigger control. I'm aware of where my sights are, but I know keeping the gun on the target as it fires is the most important thing."

Hope that helps.

kbear38S · March 29, 2001, 08:44 AM

Todd Jarrett says he watches the sights or the dot on every single shot, even fast, close range double taps.

TVDean · March 29, 2001, 10:01 AM

Brian Enos's book huh? I'll look into that.

"..Type Two Focus: When I am faced with multiple targets at extreme close range and, as above, I need extreme speed, I first confirm correct body and gun alignment(my index) on the first target, then I simply focus to the scoring surface on each target. The sights may or may not be in my peripheral vision..."

Sounds familiar, he assumes the proper body/gun position when he fires the first shot, then uses that point of impact reference to point shoot the rest of the targets.

"Type Four Focus: ...follow the rule of focusing on the front sight. ...I keep that focus to the point where I see the sight lift when the gun recoils. I see the targets only in the background."

Now this is something I need to work on. I'm sure this is the biggest piece of the pie which seperates the average shooters from the excellent ones. The quicker you can resume focus on that little blade on the front of the gun the better shooter you will be.

I wonder if there are eye ball exercises that one could do in his/her spare time to train the eye to aquire the front sight quicker after recoil.

Southern Yankee · March 29, 2001, 02:01 PM

Quote:

I wonder if there are eye ball exercises that one could do in his/her spare time to train the eye to aquire the front sight quicker after recoil.

Follow the training link in the left frame on Glock Mart. He gives several training exercises to do, one of which is for eye speed.

Ron Ankeny · March 29, 2001, 08:18 PM

kBear38S:

I have several of Jerry Barnhart's tapes and he says he sees the sight or dot on each and every shot too. In fact, he claims to be able to call his shots on a Bill Drill.

DRM · March 29, 2001, 09:38 PM

Perhaps it is a well kept secret that the pro's do in fact point shoot? Or perhaps they worry about the liability issue, I don't know. But at the 2000 IDPA Nationals, Robbie Leatham was heard saying, "If you can see your sights, your shooting too slow.."

I point shoot anything inside of 7 yards, period. 7-10 yards I make the transition to sights and anything over 10 yards requires 100% sights…pretty simple, eh?

Point Shooting is a science for me and will work for you if you know the techniques involved (Don’t knock it till you try it my way ;^)...

Yours for better scores,

D.R. Middlebrooks – Director
Tactical Shooting Academy
(www.TacticalShooting.com)

TVDean · March 30, 2001, 10:15 AM

From your website:

*Personal best major match wins to date:
International Defensive Pistol Association - IDPA Nationals Champion
World Shoot Off Championships (Man vs. Man) - IDPA World Champion
Winchester World Challenge (Speed-Steel) - Stock Gun World Champion
World Shoot Off Championships (Man vs. Man) - Stock Gun World Champion

I like the 10 yrd rule for sights. I know point shooting has its benefits, I just havn't made a decision on where and when to use it.

Ron Ankeny · March 30, 2001, 02:02 PM

DRM:

You said in a paragraph what took Brian Enos a chapter in his book. I personally "point shoot" from arm's length to about five yards. From 5 to about 10 yards I look through the sights, and from ten yards out I use the sights. The exeption is steel, I need to use the sights to hit 8 inch plates at ten...but with practice...

DRM · March 30, 2001, 02:45 PM

I know this thread is about competiton, but I use the same shooting methods for everything (same guns and gear,too).

When shooting IDPA and Tactical Matches, I’m usually too busy to looking for threat indicators (i.e., gun, knife, club, etc.) to watch my front sight (if you know how to point your weapon, the sights are always aligned and muzzle is always covering the target anyway)...

Since most house clearing ‘shots’ are at distances of less than seven yards, I find I can point shoot without a problem…As for smaller, more distant targets,just remember:

TIME = DISTANCE

The more distance you have between you and the target, the more time you should spend on sights and trigger control.

Time is a luxury that we often cannot afford. So, take your time, but do it quickly ;^)

Yours for better scores,

D.R. Middlebrooks – Director
Tactical Shooting Academy
(www.TacticalShooting.com)

smoney · March 30, 2001, 08:30 PM

i am not a master class shooter.... yet, but hoping for master or expert when i shoot the classifier this spring.

as for sights, i look through them for most "IDPA range" targets. longer distances ( beyond 15) i look a little more at the front sight.

what level are you at now, if you are below expert or the top of sharp shooter you NEED the front sight on every target past shooting from retension, it teaches you speed, speed that will be invaluable later, basics are hard to come back and learn later after you have bad habbits developed.

George in NePa · March 31, 2001, 03:22 AM

In USPSA or IDPA shooting under 10 yards I don't even know the sights or dot exist. 10 to 15 I kind of look through the sights. (these assume an unobstructed target) Over 15 I need to see everything. In NRA Action Pistol I always pay attention to the dot. The hits have to be in the X or the 10 to go anywhere in that sport.

USPSA--Open Master, A-class Limited
NRA Action Pistol--Master (knocking on the door to High Master)
IDPA--just started

March 28, 2001, 09:58 PM	#3
TVDean Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 1999 Posts: 173	Ya, who needs the rear sight anyway! :) Yonshiu Hirigotoo said, "There would be no front sight if it were not for the rear sight In this Yin-Yang statement, Yon desribes that the front sight's perspective is worthless without the rear sights contribution to the total sight picture. So if infact the sights are seen, the rear must be in there somewhere. That takes time.

March 29, 2001, 10:01 AM	#7
TVDean Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 1999 Posts: 173	......good info guys! Brian Enos's book huh? I'll look into that. "..Type Two Focus: When I am faced with multiple targets at extreme close range and, as above, I need extreme speed, I first confirm correct body and gun alignment(my index) on the first target, then I simply focus to the scoring surface on each target. The sights may or may not be in my peripheral vision..." Sounds familiar, he assumes the proper body/gun position when he fires the first shot, then uses that point of impact reference to point shoot the rest of the targets. "Type Four Focus: ...follow the rule of focusing on the front sight. ...I keep that focus to the point where I see the sight lift when the gun recoils. I see the targets only in the background." Now this is something I need to work on. I'm sure this is the biggest piece of the pie which seperates the average shooters from the excellent ones. The quicker you can resume focus on that little blade on the front of the gun the better shooter you will be. I wonder if there are eye ball exercises that one could do in his/her spare time to train the eye to aquire the front sight quicker after recoil.

March 29, 2001, 09:38 PM	#10
DRM Junior Member Join Date: March 27, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 6	Point Shooting Perhaps it is a well kept secret that the pro's do in fact point shoot? Or perhaps they worry about the liability issue, I don't know. But at the 2000 IDPA Nationals, Robbie Leatham was heard saying, "If you can see your sights, your shooting too slow.." I point shoot anything inside of 7 yards, period. 7-10 yards I make the transition to sights and anything over 10 yards requires 100% sights…pretty simple, eh? Point Shooting is a science for me and will work for you if you know the techniques involved (Don’t knock it till you try it my way ;^)... Yours for better scores, D.R. Middlebrooks – Director Tactical Shooting Academy (www.TacticalShooting.com)

March 30, 2001, 10:15 AM	#11
TVDean Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 1999 Posts: 173	Very impressive results DRM ! From your website: *Personal best major match wins to date: International Defensive Pistol Association - IDPA Nationals Champion World Shoot Off Championships (Man vs. Man) - IDPA World Champion Winchester World Challenge (Speed-Steel) - Stock Gun World Champion World Shoot Off Championships (Man vs. Man) - Stock Gun World Champion I like the 10 yrd rule for sights. I know point shooting has its benefits, I just havn't made a decision on where and when to use it.

March 30, 2001, 08:30 PM	#14
smoney Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 1999 Location: WV, USA Posts: 136	i am not a master class shooter.... yet, but hoping for master or expert when i shoot the classifier this spring. as for sights, i look through them for most "IDPA range" targets. longer distances ( beyond 15) i look a little more at the front sight. what level are you at now, if you are below expert or the top of sharp shooter you NEED the front sight on every target past shooting from retension, it teaches you speed, speed that will be invaluable later, basics are hard to come back and learn later after you have bad habbits developed. __________________ Visit our online store at www.1stoptacticalgear.com

March 28, 2001, 04:21 PM	#1
TVDean Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 1999 Posts: 173	.....or is their super quick accuracy a product of the integration between their handgun and natural pointing instinct. I don't see how a mortal human being can honestly shoot as fast and accurate as a Master or Grand Master if he or she was actually seeing the sights every shot. I'm new to this sport and not all that good, but I have had a few good stages. It seems to me that the best hit factors I've earned were from the "instinctual pointing" of the firearm after I have seen where the first bullet's point of impact was. Now of course we need sights for those 15+yd shots, but anything under that it seems that this is where the Master class shooters prevail. Are they point shooting? I think they are. Comments?

March 28, 2001, 07:47 PM	#2
banjobart Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 188	They're using the front sight.

March 28, 2001, 10:18 PM	#4
Hemphill Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 1999 Location: Reno, NV, USA Posts: 116	The masters and grand masters I have talked with say that they do use the sights, all the time. The only thing is that they don't use them in only one way. One guy in particular told me to shoot in every imaginable condition and remember what I needed to see to get the hits. Then remember that and apply it at the right time. For example, he said a rough focus on the frontsight at close range, looking at the exact area where the bullets need to go, and a hard focus on the top center of the front sight at 50 yards.

March 28, 2001, 11:01 PM	#5
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	Until you get around to buying Brian Enos' book, I'll share a few quotes: Type One Focus: "For the single target at extreme close range where I need an extremely fast hit, there is no directed focus on the sights or the target. There may be some focus on the sights or target, but it really doesn't matter." Type Two Focus: "When I am faced with multiple targets at extreme close range and, as above, I need extreme speed, I first confirm correct body and gun alignment(my index) on the first target, then I simply focus to the scoring surface on each target. The sights may or may not be in my peripheral vision." Type Three Focus: "This is the focus I use for most targets. For what I call standard practical shooting, my focus goes from targets to sights on each shot." Type Four Focus: "Type four shooting is now where I more closely follow the rule of focusing on the front sight through the course. And I keep that focus to the point where I see the sight lift when the gun recoils. I see the targets only in the background." Type Five Focus: "When I am faced with an extremely difficult shot - one that is at extreme long range or one that offers an extremely small scoring surface - my focus may shift more to trigger control. I'm aware of where my sights are, but I know keeping the gun on the target as it fires is the most important thing." Hope that helps.

March 29, 2001, 08:44 AM	#6
kbear38S Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2000 Posts: 154	Todd Jarrett says he watches the sights or the dot on every single shot, even fast, close range double taps.

March 29, 2001, 08:18 PM	#9
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	kBear38S: I have several of Jerry Barnhart's tapes and he says he sees the sight or dot on each and every shot too. In fact, he claims to be able to call his shots on a Bill Drill.

March 30, 2001, 02:02 PM	#12
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	DRM: You said in a paragraph what took Brian Enos a chapter in his book. I personally "point shoot" from arm's length to about five yards. From 5 to about 10 yards I look through the sights, and from ten yards out I use the sights. The exeption is steel, I need to use the sights to hit 8 inch plates at ten...but with practice...

March 30, 2001, 02:45 PM	#13
DRM Junior Member Join Date: March 27, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 6	I know this thread is about competiton, but I use the same shooting methods for everything (same guns and gear,too). When shooting IDPA and Tactical Matches, I’m usually too busy to looking for threat indicators (i.e., gun, knife, club, etc.) to watch my front sight (if you know how to point your weapon, the sights are always aligned and muzzle is always covering the target anyway)... Since most house clearing ‘shots’ are at distances of less than seven yards, I find I can point shoot without a problem…As for smaller, more distant targets,just remember: TIME = DISTANCE The more distance you have between you and the target, the more time you should spend on sights and trigger control. Time is a luxury that we often cannot afford. So, take your time, but do it quickly ;^) Yours for better scores, D.R. Middlebrooks – Director Tactical Shooting Academy (www.TacticalShooting.com)

March 31, 2001, 03:22 AM	#15
George in NePa Member Join Date: March 27, 2000 Posts: 33	In USPSA or IDPA shooting under 10 yards I don't even know the sights or dot exist. 10 to 15 I kind of look through the sights. (these assume an unobstructed target) Over 15 I need to see everything. In NRA Action Pistol I always pay attention to the dot. The hits have to be in the X or the 10 to go anywhere in that sport. USPSA--Open Master, A-class Limited NRA Action Pistol--Master (knocking on the door to High Master) IDPA--just started