Over 35 g. in the 1858?

[Remington kid]

How many of you use 35 g. or more in your 1858 Remington ? Over the years I have tried several different loads and combination wads, grease and powder searching for the perfect load. It seems that the .454 with 30 g. of Goex, a wonder wad and grease over the ball give me the best accuracy and greatest working gun, but when I head for the woods I like 35 g. of Goex.
Some people don't seem to think that 5 g. can make a difference but when it comes to penitration it seems to me to make allot of difference. I have never gone over 35g but I know a few who have and you don't have much room to play with if you use a wad. Just wandering if any of you load up heavy loads and what you found to be the benifit and how did it perform?

[mec]

A few years ago, Jim Taylor-GunWeek did quite a bit of work with the 58 remingtons. He found that 37 grains of fffg would fit in the chambers under a ball. I've used 35 grains of black and substitutes in Remington and Colt Copies and seem to get the same High 1,000 fps range that he recorded.

Remington
Load .451 Ball Velocity Spread 5
35 Grain Swiss FFFG .454 Uberti 1089 33

Various Colt 1869 Army Replicas
Loads 140 grain Ball: Velocity Spread
28 grain FFFG Colt Second Generation 822 FPS 55
28 grain FFFG Uberti 871 104
35 grain Goex FFFG Colt Second Generation 855 37
35 grain Swiss FFFG Uberti 1031 48
22 gr./vol. Pyrodex P Uberti .457 Ball 725 25
22 gr./vol. Pyrodex P Uberti .454 Ball 712 27
28gr/vol Pyrodex P Uberti 841 54
35 gr./vol. Pyrodex P Uberti 1047 116
35 gr./vol. Pyrodex P Uberti
with felt wonder wad 1055 69
28 gr./vol. American Pioneer 506 57
Lee 200 Grain Bullet
35 gr./vol. Pyrodex P Uberti 967 46
28 gr./vol. FFFG Uberti 753 46
FPS= Feet Per Second

[Remington kid]

Thanks Mec, That's the kind of info I like to see! If I load my Remington .44 with 35g of Goex fffg and a wonder wad over that and a .454. ball I still have room for a little less than 1/8" of grease over the ball. If I didn't use a wad and just used grease over the ball I'll bet I could get 40 g. of fffg in there but I don't believe I want to push it that much.
The gun seems to have plenty of power and still has good accuracy with 35g so that's what I use in the woods.
Now I have to order that book. Thanks again, Mike

[Remington kid]

Mec, Ordered that book at Amozon and got it for around $13.00. Thanks again, Mike

[Remington kid]

Don't have any idea why I keep saying 35g . 30-35 is my target load. In the woods or for deer size critters I like .40 Goex fffg. If I leave out the wad I just might get 45g in it but I believe that would be pushing the limits and I really don't need more than 40g. Not unless I go after Rinos

[Steve499]

The reason you keep saying that is probably the same one I have for not getting stuff right. Too much water under your bridge!

I'm shooting 30 grains out of mine right now, mainly because I already had a 30 grain spout on a flask of FFFg which I use for my .32 squirrel rifle and it was easy. I started off with that, got good accuracy and just stayed there. I intend to take scales to the range some day and spend the day grouping my Remington with incremental charge increases to see how it does with heavier charges.

I will be butchering at least one hog around the last of this month. I will use the 30 grain charge to kill it and get back to you guys about penetration. I will probably butcher another one in Dec. for one of the kids. I'll use a heavier charge then. What do you want a report on, 35 or 40 grains?


Steve

[Remington kid]

Steve , I have taken several deer with 40g off fffg and a .454 ball. Never tried it past 25 yards but never had to. A friend of mine uses his on hogs with no trouble at all.
In that book "percusion pistols and revolvers " one of the authurs talks about taking a Havilena with a .44. When the smoked cleared the pig was laying on the ground. The ball had entered behind the shoulder, traveled up through the neck and came out the other side.
It also talks about one of them seeing a man shot in the stomach with a Remington .44, the ball passed through , glanced off a table and through a cabinate door. They found the ball stuck in a loaf of bread. They got him to the hospital and he was saved but it took a long time for him to heal.

[Steve499]

In my younger years I routinely loaded an Italian replica .44 ,and not a very good quality one at that, with all the powder I could compress and still seat the ball. My 'mentor' had told me you couldn't overload a percussion revolver so I just used the spout for a .45 cal. rifle charge I had on my powder horn. I don't know how many grains it might have been. He said what didn't burn in the chamber and barrel would just burn at the muzzle. I wouldn't do that today. Or tomorrow. I doubt I'd ever load 45 grains now, but I think the guns should handle it o.k.


Steve

[Remington kid]

Your right about not going with 45g in a .44 Remington. I do believe you can push it a little to far. Mike

[Low Key]

I did a little experiment last night just out of curiosity, I have some ffg pyrodex that I use for my rifle and I wanted to see what 40 grains looked like in the 58 cylinder. So I measured 40gr. in my measure and dropped it in the 58 cylinder and with no compacting, the powder sat flush with the end of the chamber. I could seat a ball with no wad and that would be all the chamber would hold so that would be a real world max charge for me using the pyrodex ffg powder. Now if I were to use fffg, I could probably get 45gr. in there and have room for the ball no problem. I agree with you mike, I don't think I want to go that far. It might work just fine, but I don't think I want to chance it.

[Remington kid]

Low Key, I really believe that 40g of fffg is about all you need for deer size critters and under. It does a real good job on snakes too .
If I was going after anything bigger then I would use a Walker with 60g of 777

[Low Key]

I only shoot 100gr of ffg pyrodex in my BP rifle, and the walker is nearly big enough to qualify as a rifle!

[Remington kid]

"I only shoot 100gr of ffg pyrodex in my BP rifle, and the walker is nearly big enough to qualify as a rifle!"

Your right about that. Walking around these hills with one of them Hogs on your hip will wear out a good man.

[MPP1423]

Well,yall Have Seen Me Post Before What My Load Is.lol.i Use 40 Gr Of 777 Under My Cast 200 Gr Conical.i Have Had No Problems.i Also Use A Wad Under The Conical. But Let Me Ask Yall A Question,a Buddy Of Mine Brought This Up And I Never Thought About It,why If You Measure Black Powder On A Regular Scale Its Not The Same As What The Bp Measure Says.like,we Measured Out 100 Gr Of 777 In My Bp Measure The Weighed It On A Scale And It Was Only Like 78 Grs.why Is That.i Reload But Never Noticed This Before.

[Low Key]

I think I got this right, somebody correct me please if not. But your black powder measure is measuring the powder by volume, not weight like you are measuring on the scale, and that's why you get the different measurments.

[Remington kid]

Each grain of powder makes a difference on the scale and in the charge. If you loaded all your cylinders with powder that has been weighed instead of measured your accuracy would really improve. Now come up with a dial caliper that would allow you seat the ball the exact same depth and preasure and you would really have accuracy to out do anything around.
The powder measure works great in the field for us and it did for the old boy's too but you can never get the same measurement twice. Sometimes just the way you pour the powder in to the measurer it will compact a little more or a little less. When you scrape off or level off the powder in the measurer you may take off more or less grains than the last load.Hard to see it with the naked eye.
When useing the scales you use a trickle charger for the last few grains of powder and it drops just one single grain at a time. This little extra work is what seperates the pro shooters from the averag shooters. Weighing and measuring each bullet or ball can make a big difference also.
Want to go one step further? Clean the barrel between each shot.How about wind speed and direction no matter how slight. How about checking the relative hummidity and then shooting under the same conditions each day

[MPP1423]

Ok,i Get It Now. I Knew There Had To Be Something Different.i Have Been Reloading For Sometime Now But Never Claimed To Be An Expert.

[Low Key]

I learn something new nearly every time I'm on here.

[MPP1423]

low key,you are right about that one! i have never even been on any other forums but im glad i did this one.im not a computer wiz by any means.i sure have learned a lot on here and might i say met some cool guys!

[gmatov]

This is a good one.

BP and the subs have different densities. BP is heavy, so to speak. It is denser than 777, Pyrodex, APP.
When you shoot 40 gr. BP, by volume, you are supposed to reduce the volume of the subs. They're hotter, grain for grain.

Here's a site for a conversion chart, if I can post the link:

http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

If that don't come out a link, click and blue it, right click and click search for http, whatever, should get you there, or copy paste.

I THINK this chart is telling us that the same volume of 777 is 73 % the weight of BP, and hotter, so it should be reduced 15% to 62 % of the weight.
Anybody see it different?

Cheers,

George

I gotta admit, I thought the rest were the same as BP, but they ain't.

[Remington kid]

George, Thanks for the info on the "fake BP". I was always under the impression that powder like 777 was just hotter and that was the only reason for there suggestion on the lower charges.
Also an artical I read from Goex said that you use there new Pinnacle just as you do there BP but your chart site shows that not to be true either.
Thanks again, I added that site to my favorites just for future info, Mike

[gmatov]

Mike,

Yeah, I'm trying to use up my 777, then gotta use up some APP, get rid of this expensive stuff, since I found a place near me that sells GOEX.

Hard to find real BP near here. Have to have a vault to be able to sell it, and the dealers don't wanna do it.

And, real BP smells kinda like them matches you scratch on your ass, don't it?

Cheers,

George

Hey, did you ever put a little pile on a piece of stone or something, light it?

Do the same with an 06 charge of smokeless.

It will teach some what the difference is between BP and smokeless.

BP is an explosive. Smokeless is a propellant, must be confined to be destructive.

[Remington kid]

George, I've done tat with BP but not any of the subs. When i was a kid we made alot od BP and got in trouble with Dad more than once
3M corp had a plant not far from our house where they made battery acid and we could get all the pure solfer we wanted. It was laying all over the ground. The local drug store sold salt peter and charcole was no problem.
We made some really powerful stuff and it's a miracle that none of us lost a hand or worse. We made a connon out of a 2" pipe once and the thing worked the first two times loaded with powder and rocks. The third time it shattered and pieces went sky high. As an adult today I wouldn't even think about makeing it!

[gmatov]

Mike,

The point is, the BP will just go boom, not confined, so just an instant flash, taKe your eyebrows off.

5 pounds of smokeless will just sit there and burn.

The subs will do the same. Instant combustion. No progressive pressure build up as the smokeless powders do. When they speak of a fast burnig or slow burning powder, they mean it has burnt up in the first 1/3 of the barrel, for fast, but still burniing near the muzzle, for slow burning powders, still building pressure.

They DO make WAY higher pressures than the BPs and subs do, 45,000 psi or more, where the typical BP load will be less than 8,000 psi.

Now, we gotta remember that, when Col Colt made his original revolving pistols, he was making cast iron cylinders. Cast iron does not stand up to sudden pressures. Brittle, will burst. Steel, as in our modern copies are way better, and should hold all the powder you can put in the chambers, without bursting.

Brass frames may stretch, over the years, though the base pin, the arbor, is anchored to the brass frame. I don't know how these frames can stretch, but everybody says they do.

I quit for tonight, gots to go to bed.

Anybody has a rebuttal to this, see you tomorrow.

Cheers,

George

[gmatov]

Oh, ****, I shoulda said if you want to try this, with the BP and subs, lay a trail from the pile to a couple feet away. You might just blow your hand off if you don't.

It ain't like the pirate movies, where they take a keg and lay a trail, then light it and it just goes "sssssss" at a foot per minute.

It will flash to the main charge, kaboom!!!

Cheers,

George