Self defense skills:Did you have gun skills then add empty hand/knife or vice versa?

[Barry in IN]

"Gun-centered skills or no?
Did you add firearm training/skills to empty hand and/or knife skills you already posessed; or did you start with firearms training, later "tacking-on" empty hand or edged weapon training?
Does that affect your force and escalation options, and, if so, how?"

That is an old post from another forum, which I ran across while doing a search for something else. It got me thinking.

I also wondered what everyone thought here. I thought I'd toss it out to play with a while.

It was on a self-defense forum for various skills, rather than a gun board, so the respones may be different here. Most there said they had empty hand or knife skills first, then added firearm options later.

I found that interesting, but even more interesting to me, was the force escalation discusion it started- About whether people with gun-centered skills would be more apt to use empty hand methods basically as means to access the gun, rather than going up the force options level by level, meeting what force was presented to you in the fight.

A lot of people thought one should only meet a given type of force with the same level. Apparently, it was presumed that the fight would escalate in an orderly, organized manner. The thought was to avoid being the one escalating things.

I think that makes an already dangerous situation more so. Or could, depending on the situation of course.
I can't imagine most people being able to keep up with a rapidly shifting fight that goes from verbal, to empty hand, to knife defense, to firearms, without getting caught one step behind. Which may be dead.

I also think it's near-impossible to give a blanket "I will do _____" answer. It depends on the couple million factors involved in each incident.

For what it's worth, I have a "gun background", and added some basic empty hand strikes to my "toolbox". They can be used as stand-alone measures, or as a way for me to get to the gun(s).

As far as me justifying any force escalation, I may be in a different situation than most. I'm disabled, and walk with a cane a lot. Heck, if I hit someone nowadays, I will probably do more damage to myself! I really can't allow myself to fall behind in an escalating scenario, nor I would I do well in an extended fistfight.

Any opinions on all this?

[PaleRyder]

I took a couple of years of Okinawan style karate, then added gun skills.

[FirstFreedom]

I don't really and truly possess either type. But *IF* I do ever acquire serious hand to hand skills, it will be safe to say that I had a fair to moderate amount of gun skill first, though not expert level. I'm quite certain that any time I devote to training in the future will be on pistolero skills, or possibly "running away" skills, not hand to hand. If I'm without a gun, I'm going to look extra extra hard for a route of retreat. Not to say that I don't wish I had hand to hand skills, but so far, they've not been deemed by me to be worth the time investment to acquire.

[dfaugh]

Don't carry a gun...Don't feel the need...

[Dwight55]

In my younger days I would have and did on more occasions than I care to discuss, . . . rely on my hand skills first and my feet skills if necessary.

At 60, with a minor heart problem, sometimes Uncle Arthur Ritis, and a few other and sundry limiting factors: my plans, my options, my projected scenarios all generally include generous helpings of escape, feint, deceipt, and if necessary .45 ACP (or larger).

Escalation of the situation is an option I have reserved for myself as it is futile to attempt to catch up. That escalation ladder goes more or less in order: verbal skill, escape skill, deception/feint skill, .45 ACP (or larger) skill.

I have absolutely no desire to get into a shootout, . . . but escalation to a drawn, visible 1911 lets the other party know his/her options up front, concisely, pointedly (no pun intended), and expressly.

If you are last to draw, . . . you generally can count on being first to get shot, . . . and that usually translates badly for your future.

May God bless,
Dwight

[joerng]

i took a few leasons from a place called Vanguard tactical systems, it think they had the best method i have ever seen. they start from the body and work out. meaning start from the clench and work all the way out to projectile fighting. i thought it was great to learn that way. alot of the strikes didn't change when you added a knife so it was really easy to learn. also fighting from the clench is smarter anyway so it makes sense to learn it first. then learn to fight from a distance. so i guess if i was going to teach a complete self defense class i would start with the clench and work my way out to guns.

[Danindetroit]

Don't carry a gun...Don't feel the need...

Emphatically support the CCW movement.

[vertigo7]

I started with firearms training, and now I'm starting classes in wing chun.

[hso]

MA first, but consider that you can start with MA skills long before you can carry a handgun or attend much of the training to use one.

[MK11]

Shouldn't be either/or, one augments the other. Carrying a gun is good protection but as Barry alluded, can you create enough space with your attacker to pull it? That's where hand techniques come in.

I think a lot of people get turned off by the idea of having to study and train for years and years when you just need a couple simple, practical hand-to-hand techniques to fall back on. (That's certainly not meant as an indictment of training either but I think people can build up some kind of basic proficiency without a huge time committment).

Besides, will you ALWAYS have a gun? On business trips? Out-of-state where you aren't permitted to carry?

[joerng]

there are many things that one can do inorder to build a base to stand on in the way of hand to hand. but it think just building a base is setting your self up for failure you must train to use what you know by instinct. it must become reflex if you want to beable to use it under an attack.

[pbass]

Sure there are fundamentals. You have to first have decided way in advance that you and those you love are worth defending, that you will defend them, that you will spend the time necessary to learn what you have to to do the job (including legalities). Making as many decisions as possible in advance (also the nuts and bolts decisions) is key. Beside that, it doesn't hurt to not be afraid (oddly I have not been afraid as far back as I can remember, although I can do an adrenaline dump as fast as anyone when startled, which is an advantage that I refuse to misinterpret as fear, because once you take it as fear, you see yourself as a weakling, plus you take on all the negative baggage that goes with the concept of fear). You need to be in yellow all the time. It's a big commitment to do anything all the time (quitting smoking is probably somewhat similar, but being in yellow is probably harder as there's nobody to bug you). You can learn this in little mutually-reinforcing ways. For instance, the kids never mess with me while I'm on the phone because they know I'll apologize and hang up immediately, deal with them, then call back. They're more important than any call. Or when I'm doing night security, even if I know maintenance just finished up and came out of an empty bathroom, I stubbornly go in and check every stall anyway. Every mundane thing can be part of the habit of forming habits and an exercise in will. Another thing I noticed is that when things get weird, time stretches waaay out for me and I have all the time in the world to rationally figure things out and act with all deliberation. This effect, so I understand, is not an advantage unless you're not prone to freaking out, but rather seizing the moment.

[ProactiveReactionary]

mostly knife, some hand and no gun yet.

i think defensively, i have no need to think offensively however i DO prepare myself for worst case scenarios. i just never know if one day i actually have to use a skill, i hope i never do, but if need i can and will.

i love weapons, knifes, swords, guns, etc. i'm not some weapon happy freak however, i dont learn things to impress others or to feel like johnny badass. i do it to be prepared, i dont show my stuff off and i have nothing to prove to anyone.

the first thing i keep in mind is my surroundings, no matter where i am. i also try to find ways to avoid situations or places that are more prone to incidents happening, if there is no need to get into a particular situation then i see no need to get into it willingly. prevention is priority one for me. i do not want to hurt anyone, even if they want to hurt me. now if i can walk away from something, i will. given no choice then i go to the next step but at all times i will try to find a way to defuse the situation all the while being prepared for the worst.

hand to hand isnt JUST about phsycially training to defend yourself, it is also mental training to know WHEN to use that training. there is far more to it than just technique, it teaches you discipline of the mind as well as body. it also teaches you to use both as one, to be able to reflexively look at a situation and take the appropriate that can defuse it or end it QUICKLY. you will learn body language and what you can expect, you learn things you didnt expect, things that seem small but they are often the most important details.

if you want to know just a couple moves, fine, but repetition is how you get good at something, it is how it becomes second nature to you. sure you can attend some course for a couple days and "learn" some moves but experience tells me that you WILL default what you know more of. but again, it is simply not about physical ability but also mental ability that backs up that physicality. if your mind is not trained in the proper way, your body WILL fail you. hand to hand skills are worthless if you are not able to mentally make it happen, the mind is what controls your body and in a fight or flight situation, unless you've been taught otherwise you will tend to react based on natural isntincts that can range from going bezerk to freezing up to running away.

its no different from practicing with a gun, at first it seems awkward then you get use to it and get better and better at it, being able to load acquire the target and then fire your weapon. think about how you were when you first started shooting and where you are now with your experiences. do you think a person who has shot a gun few times will perform the same way as a person who have been shooting for 10 years or more? same concept, different medium.

i think of learning a little bit of everything as being well rounded, in this world where just about anything can happen, it never hurts to know a little bit if everything so you can counteract or react to it in a better way than someone who knows one or two things or nothing at all.

[CAGoatee]

A lot of people thought one should only meet a given type of force with the same level. Apparently, it was presumed that the fight would escalate in an orderly, organized manner. The thought was to avoid being the one escalating things.

Presumptions/assumptions can/will get a body seriously hurt/killed in an attack/fight. Most people simply do not have the proper training, i.e., military combat MOS and/or law enforcement (LE) to really handle themselves in a violent encounter. Note the 'presumption', that "the fight would escalate in an orderly, organized manner". That usually only happens in sporting contests, e.g., boxing, martial arts, H.S./College/Olympic wrestling. It does not matter whether you are in a combat zone, the suburbs, driving on a freeway, or eating at McDonald's, if you have just been attacked, rarely, if ever, will something happen in an "orderly manner". Assailants want to hurt and/or kill you, and don't give a damn about progressive escallation/de-escalation nor order (as alluded at the end of the above quote). A few exceptions being, some of the ancient and medieval battles, and dueling. An American example of the later, occurred when Vice-President Aaron Burr shot Alexander Hamilton in a pre-arranged duel on July 11, 1804. Mr. Hamilton subsequently died the next day, but the Vice-President was never prosecuted. Mr. Hamilton was hit with one lead ball in the hip, and after being struck; for reason(s) unknown, fired his gun into the air, and not at Mr. Burr.

Going back to your question(s), as far as the escalation and/or use of force to overcome resistance is concerned, if you match your attackers force equally, e.g., fist for fist, or tire iron vs. baseball bat, that is not the best way of winning a fight - especially if you are convinced that you are about to suffer gross bodily injury, and/or that your life is in danger. In the later two cases [possible imminent gross bodily injury and/or death], then do what ever it takes to either get the hell out of there - retreat is a valid combat tactic - so that you can live to fight another day, or do whatever it takes, with whatever you've got (skills, weapons, etc.) to save your ass. Again, real fights are rarely fair, nor should they be, if you want to prevail against your attacker, i.e., take whatever advantage that you've got, and don't let up until your assailant has stopped attacking you!

Conversely however, if anyone uses unreasonable force to overcome a threat and/or attack, then (in the U.S.) they will more than likely be charged with some sort of crime, and more than likely prosecuted. For example, an assailant threatens to punch you in the nose if you don't give him your wallet, you refuse, he punches you, then you pull out your Desert Eagle, and splatter his brains all over the sidewalk. In that scenario, you have really screwed up, and will probably be arrested for manslaughter, or even 2nd degree murder.

The point being, that in most cases, as far as the law is concerned, your response to an attack (if you chose/choose to fight), i.e., the force and/or weapons that you used to overcome the assailant, will be judged against the proverbial, 'test of the reasonable man'. Meaning, what would the average person do in response to the same/similar situation that you found yourself in. So, if LE/the DA thinks your force was reasonable, then your actions will be considered justifiable. If not, then you are more than likely going to be prosecuted, and if that is the case, then your fate will be decided either by plea-bargain, or trial.

In some States, if the assailant dies; even if your response "seems" reasonable, then you may be initially arrested anyway, then later released on bail, pending the DA's investigation. [Know also, that whatever weapon(s) you used to fend off the attacker(s) with, will probably be confiscated (pending the outcome), and marked as evidence, i.e., the arresting Deputy/Officer/Trooper, etc., will scratch his/her initials and/or badge number into your firearm/weapon somewhere. So, would you rather have scratches on a Glock; or another fairly inexpensive gun, or on a fine/beautiful custom piece? Just food for thought (always think ahead)].

So far as to what skills are learned first, open hand and/or knife vs. gun skills, it is usually the former that is learned first, as very few young people, i.e., less than 18 y.o., are taught combat/defensive skills with firearms, let alone allowed to carry them (2nd half of the 20th century - present). Second, there are many countries that do not allow their citizens to carry; or even possess, firearms and/or in some cases even edged weapons (feudal Japan is a historical example). In Canada, if a person uses deadly force to overcome a life threatening attack, they probably will be charged and prosecuted for 2nd degree murder (if I understand my Canadian relatives correctly).

Bottom line: There is an old sports adage that is applicable to the posted questions, i.e., "How you train is how you will play". Meaning, if you don't properly prepare for the situation, you will probably succumb to it. In other words, if you don't do your best to acquire the proper skills and practice them, then the mere possession of a weapon, and/or rudimentary fighting skills, may not help you a whole lot.

On the other hand, if you lack combat/defensive skills, e.g., you are just learning, or suffer from a disability that prevents you from acquiring those skills, then bringing a gun to a knife fight is rarely a bad idea. In the days of the Old West, Mr. Colt's Model P ended a lot of potentially violent encounters before they got started. (That gun wasn't called "the Peacemaker" for nothing!) And the same holds true today. If you are prepared to use a gun on an attacker; when deadly force is reasonable and/or necessary, then merely brandishing the firearm will often end the fight immediately, (Internet sites like Gun Owners of America, or JPFO, have all kinds of supporting information for that too).

Lastly, having the proper mindset will allow you to overcome many apparent or perceived "disadvantages" in any violent, or potentially violent encounter. ("It's not the size of the dog in the fight, rather it's the size of the fight in the dog".)

[Black_Snowman]

I started with unarmed combat in grade school. I've been practicing firearm skills. I'd like to get formal training in both melee weapons and firearms but just haven't gotten around to it like a great many things in my life. . .

[Barry in IN]

Thanks everybody, for the replies.
As I said in the original post, when I saw this question asked elsewhere, most answered that they had empty hand skills, then maybe added on firearm skills. No real surprise there.

I was, however, surprised at the responses at that other forum, when they added that they "planned" to match the threat level presented to them and/or escalate force ONLY as the attacker did.
Sounds great, but without Kreskin mind reading skills also, that sounds dangerous to me.
IF, after a defensive strike or two they are still coming at me, it's time to move on to another plan.

[Ninjato]

I have been training for 33 years in various martial arts w/ 15 years of it in Tai Chi Chuan.

I have learned that the "fighting" part of martial arts is about 10%. The rest of it is the training and concepts a person has to perfect in order for the fighting part to work.

That said, you can learn some basic strikes and counters but to fully use a bonafide martial arts requires years of study. This is where the error begins. A person takes the martial arts for many reasons w/ fighting being the predominant factor in the beginning. As one matures in the arts, one will realize the fighting is just a tool to get the mind, body, and spirit in balance.

Ayways, I haven't carried for a long time, then I moved to Philadelphia.....nuff said.

[bdc]

I learned the gun skills first from a master in Son soo.

I would disregard any judo that I had learned in college.

After learning the gun skills, I picked up knife folder skills, escrima and khukuri skills in that order.

I learned that proper shooting technique was a function of human ergonomics - and then learned that the martial arts were also based upon that premise - and not the usual interminable arguments about which martial art "is the best".

[rolling thunder]

Igrew up in east. St. Louis Illinois during the 50's and 60's. Being one of only a few white people in the area, (I lived in downtown, not somewhere on the fringes) I early on learned how to run. I mean that. Not just run But running smart. With police or just a few fellas trying to catch you, one mis-step and your caught. I learned most of the "dirty tricks" tactics. I got in fights every week. Some were just a few blows exchanged and some were against half a dozen of us versus half a dozen of them.

I think this is relevant to this discussion because growing up as I did I inadverdantly(sp?) aquired the mind-set of a fighter and became thick skinned and hard to hurt. By the age of 16 I was not intimidated by any one person. I carried knives while some others carried handguns. Though I was stupid enough to put my blade between myself and someone else they always backed off and I never had to do something even more stupid. I was a skinny wirey kid and I guess the blade reresented python arms that I did not have. In any case, I'm glad I never used a weapon is such a way on anyone.

I learned "street smarts" before I could remember. I learned that often it was best to run and live to fight another day and I learned how to go no-holds-barred on the schoolgrounds and in the parks. Our circle of friends (nice way of saying street gangs) would fight each other. Though not full out they could be painful sessions when it was the best way to learn a particular technique or having a rapid response to attack.

Though I never had a gun as a child, now and then I got to fire shotguns, revolvers and 22 caliber rifles. But not that much really. I was far more accurate with a home-made sling shot.....*g*

In 1970 when I joined the army I got issued an M-16 (stored in the firearms building when we weren't carrying them with us. I fell in love with that rifle but all the same, being a city kid, I stunk on the firing range. Them country boys put most of us slickers to shame on the range. I never even made the lowest quota to qualify. But a D.I. with a lag screw and tape around one end gave my target a few punches and not only made me a marskan but a sharpshooter! I was concerned about that but I did not want to drop back three weeks in basic training so I kept my mouth shut.

At different times I went to firing ranges as well as out in the desert, (Fort Bliss in el paso) and had a chance to shoot all kinds of guns though I never owned one myself. Though I was probably still more accurate at close range with a slingshot.

Soon after my ETS I happened to get a job at a textile plant where one of the workers was a blackbelt in taekwondo. When he learned I grew up in east st louis he challenged me to come to one of his classes. His "dojang" was the asphalt basketball court outside a grade school. In winter we used a one room schoolhouse.
He did not test us or promote us. We were all white belts (besides he of course), some were just more skilled whitebelts. Sparring equipment was a mouth piece and a cup, (if you had one). We sparred every time we had class and it was as close to full contact as I had ever done excluding some rough encounters.
We also would visit other schools of different diciplines and fight their students. He had us fight in water up to our waist. He had us fight three and four at a time. Lots of bruises and a few minor injuries but we learned. My muscle mass was increasing from the "lose your lunch' workouts we would do. I spent about a year and a half training there bfore I moved back to El Paso.

I could not afford what any of the schools (not just TKD) that weree in business but after a while I found an instructor who claimed to be a JKD instructor but after about six months I realized he was not, though his martial skills were very good he was a lousy teacher. Basicly all we ever did was fight, using different series of techniques depending of the situations he would put us in. As I said, this guy was a bit of a fraud, but I was able to greatly encahnce my fighting skills none the less. My first Instructor made us pay him a whopping ten bucks a month to train with him, (uniforms not required) while my second instructor didn't charge anything. He just liked havin a few young men around to beat the snot out of. he was also very good with the chucks and I took an interest in them.

Over the years I dropped out of training (1978) and basically spent a decade or so simply getting on my harley and going places where I'd never been. Sometimes grabbin a job and staying awhile, then leave when I could bankroll my gas and food for a period again. LOT'S of great memories, (stories) apply to that period of my life. I also learned what I know about guns during my escapades. (well a lot of what I know, which is not much)

After I got married I, my wife and our adopted 13 year old son, (who was my nephew) all trained under a TKD master. After 3 qnd 1/2 years we earned our blackbelts. We had already been assistant instructors and soon we were running a location for our grandmaster.

I found (especially at first) that I learned TKD (and some hapkido) even beter by teaching it. That was a long time ago.

My wife and I were going to move back to the rockies and open our own school there. We had plans to be in business there by June of 96. Unfortunately I was in a terrible acident which has left me paralyzed from the waist down. My want of living in the rockies sort of evaporated since the mountains are not really handicap accessible.

As soon as I could I got back to both training and teaching classes. By a lot of research and trial and error, as well as imput from from friends of other disciplines I have a course for wheelchair people that greatly enchances their self-defense ability. Mine of course has sky-rocketed. Driven by that drive I've always had as well as a strong desire to develope a system for persons with disabilities. I exploit the disadvantage of standing and employ the advantages of being seated. It may sound as though I'm being silly, but I will say that iam VERY qualified to teach defense skills to all people regardless of physical limitations. I fight my students in my chair, with my chair and out of my chair, constantly trying to improve my techniques.

This year the PVA finally accepted my TKD forms, sparring and breaking program for people in wheel chairs. It is only at the "exhibtion" stage right now but the response I recieved was overwhelming. I'm about to try and inject it into the paralympics buy thats a bigger obstacle so we will see.

Nowadays my wife and I are 4th degree blackbelts, (soon we will be testing for our fifth "Dan"...(degree). We own our own school now, building and all and have a very good course. We have about 85 students and about ten with exceptional talent. We have been lucky and have developed a reputation amongst our peers as being the school that "clean up" at tournaments. I have childen in thir teens that have trained since they were in kidnagarden. All the while, as I try to acomplish many of my own goals, I know I am instilling both the dicipline and respect of oneself and others as well as training hard for myself and my own goals.

UFC welter-weight world champion, (actually I have not kept up with all of Matt's fights, but I talk with his father from time to time and get caught up.

My wife's uncle owns an indoor firing range (where I don't pay for anything save for ammo). I also have that 7 1/2 acres and target shoot there as well. Once I move in I will create a bermed target area that can be shot from close range or as far away as my back deck will be. (for rifles)

So while my firearms skills are not as good as most, my self-defense skills are better than almost evreyone who is in a wheelchair as well as a cunning counter attacker. Of course I'm not superman and once someone knows I am a bit able things change. The element of surprise is a BIG advantage for me. At least until Ilinois gets smart enough to pass CCW. (sorry for such a long story)

[Metellus]

I started with Thai Boxing, then to BJJ, then to mixed martial arts. Brazilian Jiujistu and Thai Boxing were great since they are both ring sports. Some martial artists disdain "sports" since you don't usually do "illegal" techniques. But I've learned the great thing about ring sports is that you actually hit and get hit, throw or get thrown, or struggle on the ground. Traditional arts that don't go full out sparring is like practicing to shoot with an unloaded weapon and going through the motions without ever shooting a real bullet.

As for why I tacked on gun skills. I had two unfortunate incidents in my life. The first time a mugger attacked me and I beat the hell out of him. Many years later another mugger threw a punch at my face I took it full on while I was talking on my cell phone at a bus stop. Didn't slow me down and threw a pucnh that laid him out. I didn't notice his 4 buddies with knives who beat the heck out of me and cut me.

Morale of the story for me is... with multiple opponents you better have a gun. If I shot the first guy then his friends would probably think twice about attacking me. Anyway now I carry a Glock or SA handgun and a spyderco knife.