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Old August 15, 2011, 10:09 AM   #26
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That's how I would crimp them for a revolver. But you don't have a revolver.

Try crimping over the front driving band and I'll bet it works. Doesn't really matter whether you use a roll crimp or a taper crimp, just crimp enough to straighten out the flare and turn the case mouth in slightly.
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Old August 15, 2011, 10:18 AM   #27
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let me make clear those are reloaded rounds I got from the gun show... not my own...

For those that are shooting .38 spl from these old 1911's what spring rate are you all using??? lb rating???

Last edited by 1911-38spl; August 15, 2011 at 10:35 AM.
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Old August 15, 2011, 11:53 AM   #28
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Zxcvbob is right about the protruding bullet. Too long. Below are a couple of Federal match wadcutter rounds for comparison. Bullet flush with case mouth. That's what your gun is designed to feed. It obviously is .38 Special or the case wouldn't drop in that far. I don't know what the M.R. stand's for.



The part you want for the grip frame is called a grip escutcheon. Brownells had them last time I looked. The original design is staked in place. The design for the Goldcup is threaded, though, and your best bet will likely be to drill and tap the old hole for the Goldcup style escutcheons. Restaking them takes a special tool and it might not hold now they've been pulled once.

Because the barrel is straight blow-back and does not use a standard 1911 barrel lock-up, I don't know what the recoil spring weight is. I'll have to defer to someone with experience with these. You used it as a gauge just fine. It doesn't need to come out for that.
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Old August 15, 2011, 02:29 PM   #29
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Those look like some of the rounds I shot when I first got the gun. The problem with those rounds is that they would fire and eject ok but the 2 round would hang up and not go into the chamber and thus holding the slide open.

I can't remember if it was my grandfathers rounds or gun show rounds that I fired out of it... So maybe those rounds were too "hot" and I need to dial down the powder...??? Maybe i'll go shoo it some more and check back in with pics when I have the misfeed that holds the slide open...

Others that are firing the above .38spl wad cutter rounds from a 1911: if there are any... How do you have your gun set up and how are you loading your ammo???

Also from what i understand... since the .38spl round fits so well I guess the .38 auto and .38 AMU rounds are not what I need????

Thanks guys, you are all being most helpful!
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Old August 15, 2011, 02:52 PM   #30
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I realize this is probably highly unlikely (and will undoubtedly show how novice I am at reloading and guns), but is there any chance that I could shorten my cases enough to make .38spl critical defense rounds for this 1911? I do realize my powder load would be smaller and I probably couldn't use the Hornaday synthetic tip bullets, but i do have some .357 hallow point bullets (1000 rds or so) that look a little like the pic below... So I am just curious if I could load those into a shorter case with a small charge of powder and be ok???? any thoughts????


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Old August 15, 2011, 03:48 PM   #31
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.38 AMU is rimless, so you can't use it. .38 ACP is semi-rimless, so your extractor hook probably won't reach deep enough to pull them out reliably. No fit. You have a dedicated .38 Special Wad Gun.

The gun is straight blowback operation. If you beef the loads up higher than the .38 Wadcutter loads it is dedicated to using, you will get significant battering of the slide on the frame. The soft slides on the older 1911's can't take much of that without peening up burrs that cause interference. Moreover, do you really want to rely for critical defense on using wrong ammo in a gun that's demonstrated it can get confused and hiccup every third round? I think it's a target gun and you need to get it running for that purpose and buy something else for self-defense.
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Old August 15, 2011, 04:00 PM   #32
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makes complete sense to me!

In that case I will make up some of those flush wad-cutter rounds with 2.7 grains of powder.

Does that sound right all? And I'd still like to hear what spring tention others are using if anyone is using a 1911 for wad-cutters like me.... Zippy???? any comments?

Thanks for all the help guys!
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Old August 15, 2011, 04:16 PM   #33
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I would just use the time-honored recipe of 2.7 grains of Bullseye under a 148 grain wadcutter. If you want to use Accurate #2, it will be 3.0 grains.

No clue about the spring, though, since I don't have one. Measure the length and diameter of the one that was with it, count the turns, and measure the diameter of the wire. You can even set it on a scale and see how many pounds it takes to shorten it to half length. Then call Alan Dugger at Sprinco. Tell him what the spring is and ask him if it sounds close to anything he has. If so, he could give you a little more or a little less weight, I expect. Your old spring may be fatigued, too, and need replacement for that reason.
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Old August 15, 2011, 04:22 PM   #34
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10-4... sounds like I have marching orders... LOL!

I don't have powder or a #6 case holder for the .38spl/.357 so I'll go find myself both and make some rounds up!

It might be a while since my neighbor is going to help get my press and such set up... Kinda gotta wait on him to have some free time...
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Old August 15, 2011, 04:40 PM   #35
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one other thing I didn't consider that I'm just throwing out there so maybe I consider it in the future is the clip and whether or not it's feeding the gun properly??? Just a random thought....

sounds like we are going to punch out old primers on my brass tonight!!!!

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Old August 15, 2011, 08:41 PM   #36
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They can be a problem. You may want to take it apart and clean it. Push the follower down until you can stick a screwdriver through to hold the spring while you get the follower out. Clean the magazine housing, spring and follower.

In Lyman and Lee, .38 Special is a #1 shell holder. In RCBS and Hornady they are #6, while in Redding and C&H they are #12.
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Old August 16, 2011, 07:38 AM   #37
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By the way, that's not a regular 1911 magazine, it's made (or modified) specifically for a rimmed case. I have no idea where you would go to get a spare. But as others have said, if you use rounds with flush seated wadcutters I think you will have a working gun.
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Old August 16, 2011, 08:30 AM   #38
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Update 8/16/2011

1.) I have a inside guy now after talking with one of the older guys that works at the local sporting goods store (Sheels) and they have a gunsmith that will sit down with me for a few mins and walk me through what''s going on with my gun if need be... Not sure if gunsmith #3 will be any better than the previous 2 so I'm holding off for now and using the collective genius from this thread first.

2.) I got 2 Lee shell holders. One for the rock chucker press and one for the hand primer/case trimmer. I also got some Bullseye gun powder (on sale for $14/lb - don't know if that's good or not).

3.) I got 500 brass punched out last night and into the 2 Lyman Turbo Tumblers to clean them. So here's where the reloading questions come in.

How long can the cases be? I was reading a 1.149-1.155 in the Lyman Reloading Guide (49th ed.). I have some as long as 1.185 that I can trim obviously but I was wondering if 1.144-1.145 is too short b/c I have a bunch in that range...????

Next question is if the quality of the reload will be affected by by the type of brass I use? I have a 50/50 mix of reg. yellow brass and silver brass (not aluminum!). Didn't know if the silver shells reloaded as well...???

4.) I'll make sure and clean the mag really well before use next time. Thanks for the info on how to clean!
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Old August 16, 2011, 08:46 AM   #39
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Quote:
How long can the cases be? I was reading a 1.149-1.155 in the Lyman Reloading Guide (49th ed.). I have some as long as 1.185 that I can trim obviously but I was wondering if 1.144-1.145 is too short b/c I have a bunch in that range...????
the short ones should be fine the longer ones could cause over pressure if they are too long for chamber, I'd trim to be safe.
Quote:
Next question is if the quality of the reload will be affected by by the type of brass I use?
not that you'd notice, I've been using mixed brass for my target loads for years.

As to your SD ammo question. Just use the wadcutters they cut nice holes in flesh too and will penatrate 14-15" in jelly. A lot of oldtimers used them in airweight snubs back in the 50 and 60s.
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Old August 16, 2011, 01:53 PM   #40
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Your "silver" brass is actually nickel-plated brass. It works, but different makers have different degrees of ability to plate the nickel, so some of it flakes off easily or the brass underneath is brittle and cracks easily. If you find it wearing off evenly, then you're good to go. That's the best nickel-plated stuff. Just be aware that some poorer plating can flake off an the flakes stick in your sizing die and cause scratches to other cases. Not really anything but cosmetic consequence at the pressures your .38 Special will run at.

1.185" is an odd case length. I've never seen a .38 Special headstamp case stretched like that. Make sure you don't just have a rim bent back by the extractor and adding to the measurement. If you still have it that big, get a Lee trimmer and trim it.

The SAAMI speck for .38 special brass is a length of 1.155" -0.020". So 1.135" to 1.155" is the normal range, and manufacturers aim for the middle of that range at 1.145". You want your cases as close to the same length as possible (even if they're all short) just so your crimps all match and provide matching start pressure.
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Old August 16, 2011, 03:07 PM   #41
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A fascinating gun, I have seen several conversions to .38 Special wadcutter but not one like this.
It is blowback like the Colt Gold Cup .38 whereas most Super-Special conversions stayed with recoil operation like the original .38 Super.
It has a bull barrel with no bushing, which is why there is a screw to retain the recoil spring plug, see below.
The magazine is made, not altered, for .38 Special but does not look exactly like those I recall.

By the way, the .38 AMU was a military match project and I don't know of any civilian guns or ammo except as collector's items that leaked out of the program. Does anybody here?

The first thing I would do is to get it taken apart - you now need professional help with that stuck and boogered screw holding in the recoil spring plug - and clean it thoroughly; it really looks grimy inside and out. The hard fouling on the feed ramp might be all the functional problem you have. If lucky.

You will not find an "escutcheon" for a 1911 pistol, the thing that screws into the frame and takes the grip screw is a "grip screw bushing". If the hole in the frame is stripped, Brownells sells an oversize bushing and the tap to thread for it. Obviously (I hope) gunsmith or machinist work.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6...BUSHINGS___TAP

I would then get some wadcutter bullets and some fast burning powder - Bullseye, Win 231 or WST, Vihtavuori N310, etc. - pick a load for about the same 750 fps as factory midrage wadcutters and go with it.
(M.R. --- Mid Range, get it? Midrange for pistols is 25 and 50 yard target shooting. You don't need a lot of power.)

I would then experiment with bullet seating and crimp to find a combination that would 1. go in the magazine and 2. feed to the chamber.

Yes, it is physically possible to trim back brass or buy .38 Short or Long Colt brass and use roundnose bullets but that should not be necessary once you have hit on the combination the gun was set up for.

It will be tough learning to handload by tailoring ammo for a finicky target pistol. Do you have a revolver or something else to learn on?
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Old August 16, 2011, 04:48 PM   #42
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.38spl colt revolver (retired Chicago Police pistol) is what I have learned on... I also have a .22 High Standard Model D... YES I said "D"!!! I know the "D" is more of a collectors item now and I even have the origional box it came in. A contact at Brownells offered me $1500 for it... I said no since it was one of my grandfathers pistols.

This .38spl we have been talking about is more of a labor of love. My grandfather just died last year and my uncle was nice enough to share some of grandpa's guns with me... I wish I would have got the 44 mag revolver but I'm guessing my uncle knew this thing was a PITA... I'm just hoping I can get it to cycle ammo better and just be a little more reliable.

For now I don't think I've run any stock wad-cutter type 2.7gr bullets through it yes so that's the first thing I am going to try. I may try making some .38 short/long colts if I run out of options later but that will be a last resort.
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Old August 16, 2011, 05:13 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wastson
You will not find an "escutcheon" for a 1911 pistol, the thing that screws into the frame and takes the grip screw is a "grip screw bushing".
Maybe its something in the water here, but I'd always heard them called escutcheons and even bought a bunch packaged that way about twenty odd years ago. But a little research shows the term should be limited to the (usually brass) inserts in soft grip panel materials like wood and plastic, and not to parts in the frame. It's always funny to run into something like that after decades of misuse. Live and learn.
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Old August 16, 2011, 05:30 PM   #44
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Yeah, terminology gets a little weird sometimes.

FLG had a call from an old pal who had a Colt pocket model that he needed new grip hardware for. He was moaning and groaning about the difficulty of matching thread, length, and head, then making the escutcheon. I could see where he would tie up two days fooling with it, so I said wait a while, went home, and started hitting grip makers*. Sure enough, generic screw, escutcheon, and splined nut to imbed in the offside grip, $7.50, copy of originals $12.00. A bargain beside the time he would have felt obliged to put in for free for an old pal.

*FLG doesn't www at all. Grumbles about having to wait for COD deliveries because he won't have a credit card, either.
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Old August 18, 2011, 09:01 AM   #45
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Update 8/18/2011

Well I made a huge oops... I resized all my brass and punched the old primers out and then let my neighbor put all my brass in his Lyman tumbler with walnut shells... Well every stinking primer hole now needs to be cleaned out! Grrr...

Anyhow I have about 100 of 500 brass ready to go and if my neighbor has time tonight I'll be making up some 148grain wadcutters! Wish me luck and I'll hopefully check back in soon to let you all know how it goes.
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Old August 19, 2011, 02:58 PM   #46
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Update 8/19/2011

Well I have all the brass cleaned and ready to prime (450rds worth).

Neighbor is going to the races for the whole weekend so no loading this weekend. I'll get my brass primed this weekend and then hopefully nail him down for some time to make 10-20 rds of wadcutter next week so i can test the 1911.

Brighter side of the news... my uncle found the single bullet mold for the .38spl wadcutters so I can start casting my own! Unfortunatly it's only a single bullet mold and not the Lee x6 mold So it's going to take forever to cast my own...
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Old September 8, 2011, 09:45 AM   #47
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Updates!!!!!!! 9/8/2011

Hey guys,
So it was a no-go on the stock wadcutter reloads. I made about 20rds of the below wadcutters with 2.6-2.7 grains of bullseye.


For reference this is a pic of the sping my gunsmith put in (short one), and the long one is the one my grandfather had in the gun.


Here is the subsiquent jam after firing 4 rds (with short sping), and as you can see this is the spent case being jamed. So this means the slide is closing to fast???? Sorry the quality of the pic is low but I couldn't find the good camera and had to use my phone.

I did swap the spring out and still had jaming problems but didn't get a pic of the problems with the longer spring my grandfather had in (was kinda pre-occupied with brewing beer with a buddy of mine)...

Any thoughts suggestions??????

Anyone have a stock spring length for the 1911's that were made to be .38spl stock??? Thinking of reloading another 50-100rds and getting a full length spring and try adjusting the spring down a little after 5rds or so to see if I can find a sweet spot.

I'd love it if someone could measure the guage (thickness) of their sping wire and the overall length for me... PLEASE?!?!?!?!?

Last edited by 1911-38spl; September 8, 2011 at 09:52 AM.
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Old September 8, 2011, 11:55 AM   #48
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Seat the bullets all the way flush with the ends of the cases, then crimp a little more. You're not loading for a revolver.
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Old September 8, 2011, 12:37 PM   #49
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how is that going to help when the cartridges eject and get caught in the slide?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being an arse... I just want to understand how that would help...
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Old September 8, 2011, 01:14 PM   #50
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I didnt notice that it was jamming on ejection rather than feeding (yeah, I know you said it, I still didn't notice cuz I'm doing 3 things at once and not paying much attention), but the shorter OAL will raise the pressure and that might actually help -- the spent case will eject a little harder.

Or you can increase the powder slightly -- 2.8 to 3.0 grains instead of 2.6-2.7
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