K Frame & Warm 357

[1972RedNeck]

My go to load for 357 Mag is 16.5 grains of H110 under a 158 gr bullet.

I recently picked up a Smith 65-6 that is quickly becoming one of my favorites.

I read conflicting info about what these K Frames can take and what they can't.

Will my loads take a toll on my M65 or am I worrying about nothing?

[74A95]

The usual mantra is that K-frames are better thought of as best fed mostly 38s, with only occasional 357 use. But no K-frame owner is bound by that.

You might find the article below of interest.

https://www.ssusa.org/content/how-to...-cone-failure/

[mehavey]

16.5 grains of H110 under a 158 gr bullet.

That's a fairly hot load.
(But) it's not going to blow anything up, and I predict you'll tire out before the Smith does.
Being a reloader (you) have lots of options.

[ligonierbill]

Common wisdom holds that 125s loaded at or near max tend to crack the forcing cone. But I have no direct knowledge of such. Your gun should "take" anything within published limits. Will heavy loads accelerate wear? I imagine so, but I agree with mehavey. You'll wear out first.

[Nick_C_S]

16.5 grains of H110 under a 158 gr bullet.

That's a fairly hot load.

I would respectfully disagree - kind of.

I load a lot of 158 grain bullets with H-110 (and W296 - same stuff) with a charge considerably hotter than 16.5gn for quite a few years now. And I consider the charge weight I use now to be "de-tuned" compared to what I used to load back in pervious decades. 16.5 is pretty tame.

But I do agree that either way - "hot" or not - I wouldn't be concerned with putting that load (158 / 16.5gn H-110) through it. Like mehavey said, It would be a very long time before that load would loosen up the gun.

The general consensus is that running hot ammo with light bullets tends to be the problem.

[44 AMP]

Will my loads take a toll on my M65 or am I worrying about nothing?

The short answer is "Yes".

The 65-6 has the durability enhancements S&W came up with after the issues with the early 65s & 66s. A steady diet of factory ammo or equivalent handloads should not damage the gun. It will, however, wear and at some point need a "tune up". I would look to get 4,000rnds or so before any issues crop up, but your milage may differ.

Your load is the listed max in Hornady 3rd edition, and nearly a full grain OVER max listed in their 7th edition. Work up to that load in that gun. I'm sure the load will be safe, (meaning the gun will not blow up) but it may not be "suitable". Every gun is a bit different, so be alert for the possibility that your gun might not run well, with loads that are "book safe" but not suitable for it. I've experienced ammo that ran fine in N frames but would stick cases in the chambers in a K frame. Probably due to individual guns, rather than as a general rule, but one never knows, until you do test firing.

[AlaskaMike]

There's more to it than just chamber pressure.

With that load, I would expect a K frame to go out of time and develop excessive end-shake pretty quickly.

[Mike Irwin]

I have 3 Model 19s. One early 60s, the other two 70s/early 80s.

I shoot mostly .38s out of them, but I have run Magnums through all of them, and when I carry the 2.5" version, it's loaded with Remington Golden Sabres.

The issues with the K frames developed early in their history when users were putting a steady diet through them, hundreds to thousands of rounds.

Most of us are not going to do that.

[Mannlicher]

the Model 19 is a dang Magnum revolver. Enjoy it. Shoot it. Push it. It isn't going to blow up. IF, and that's a pretty big if, there is ever an issue, then get the issue fixed. It's not like a tune up is the end of the world.

[1972RedNeck]

Your load is the listed max in Hornady 3rd edition, and nearly a full grain OVER max listed in their 7th edition. Work up to that load in that gun.

Really? Max in my Lyman is 17gr. My N frame likes them a LOT hotter...

I did start with a couple rounds at 16 gr. Shot well. Went to my 16.5 gr standard loads and no pressure signs. Good accuracy.

[44 AMP]

Keep in mind that "max" in any manual is not "what the gun will take" nor is it "what every gun will take", it is where the testers stopped with their test gun, and the reason why they stopped there can be varied.

I generally run 2400 in my .357s and I've got loads I've been shooting since the early70s that are well above the listed max in today's manuals. And, those loads are not suitable for everything chambered in .357 Mag.

[Recycled bullet]

I shot about 250 rounds of 357 Magnum handloads (16.5 grains of H110 under 155 grain cast hollow point bullets in Starline 357 brass) tonight through my Smith & Wesson 686 and Ruger Blackhawk. How much higher are you running the powder charges, and where are you getting the space? My loads are already moderately compressed. Are you using a drop tube?

[Recycled bullet]

I have shot these loads through a J frame and the recoil velocity is similar to slapping a granite countertop as hard as you can, or slamming your hand in a car door over and over. I can't imagine a k frame being terribly more comfortable.

[1972RedNeck]

I have shot these loads through a J frame and the recoil velocity is similar to slapping a granite countertop as hard as you can, or slamming your hand in a car door over and over. I can't imagine a k frame being terribly more comfortable.

I do have Hogue tamer grips on all my Smiths just so they are all the same, but 16.5 gr of h110 under 158 gr bullets is no problem with my K frame. But then again, I can and will run hundreds of hot handloads through my 454 or 460 with no problem. Wrists locked solid, elbows completely relaxed.

[1972RedNeck]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

I shot about 250 rounds of 357 Magnum handloads (16.5 grains of H110 under 155 grain cast hollow point bullets in Starline 357 brass) tonight through my Smith & Wesson 686 and Ruger Blackhawk. How much higher are you running the powder charges, and where are you getting the space? My loads are already moderately compressed. Are you using a drop tube?

18 grains under a 158 Gr XTP is my favorite load for my N Frame 627. Been working on my double action rapid fire with these loads and continue to surprise myself so I would consider their recoil to be on the mild side.

Your mileage my vary

Have no intention of running these loads though my K frame for the sake of longevity. If it wasn't for that, I would love to push a little higher than my current 16.5 gr loads.

[P Flados]

The barrel wall thickness at the forcing cone is not a lot to start with and is reduced by a flat on the bottom.

I have seen some reports of a crack developing with a moderate quantity of full power loads, but most issues occur after a substantial quantity of heavy shooting.

Barrels for these guns are no longer made and I have seen posts stating that replacements are getting very hard to find.

If the forcing cone is showing thinning due to erosion, the barrel can usually be "fixed" by a good gun smith if it is not cracked yet. If you do not get it "fixed", continuing to shoot much of anything above a 38 Sp is taking your chances.

These are generally really nice guns. Pushing them to the point of rendering a gun useless (cracked barrel with no practical repair), is something of a shame.

I have had a couple of guns with forcing cone erosion. These were Dan Wesson revolvers and were easy to fix. However, I pay more attention to the issue now.

[radom]

here used to shoot the hell out of them with the elmer loads and never had issues past top strap cut and forcing cone cutting

[gnappi]

I have and have had a number of K frames as well as L and N frames and for range shooting I never loaded very hot for any but the N frames.

Will a K last? Sure, loaded with barn burners I think it will out last the shooter.

[rock185]

Wow! That is a bit warmer than what I loaded in the .357 years ago. FWIW, back when LE used revolvers, I did see a model 19 or two and a Python with a damaged forcing cone. The forcing cone of my early 66 didn't crack, but the gun went out of time, spit lead, developed excess end shake, etc. with much use of factory and reloaded .357 ammo. I had the 66 completely overhauled by S&W back in '80, and switched to an L-Frame soon after they became available. The only original parts on the old 66 are the frame, side plate and rear sight. Still have the old 66, but it didn't get shot much after the overhaul.

Never saw or heard of any K-Frame .357s on the Dept. actually blowing up, but much prefer the L an N frame guns myself for those really heavy loads...YMMV

[Mike Irwin]

"Keep in mind that "max" in any manual is not "what the gun will take" nor is it "what every gun will take", it is where the testers stopped with their test gun, and the reason why they stopped there can be varied."

DING! DING! DING!

There are so many variables in load development -- from powder lots to case composition to primer make and composition and on and on and on -- that it's not surprising that few loading manuals, even different editions from the same company, often don't agree.

That's why the recommendation is to always start low and work your way up, not high/max and let's see what happens.

[amd6547]

My K frame magnum experience was not so great.
I bought a used nickel snub Model 19. After about 200rds of magnum ammo (mainly American Eagle 158gn SP), it developed a timing issue. Used gun, I wasn’t too surprised. So I had it looked over by a local smith, a guy who has done work for John Taffin.
After I got it back, it started to develop the same issue after another couple hundred of the same rounds.
I wanted to love that revolver, but I traded it for a 3” GP100, which has been utterly reliable, and very accurate.
I save my K frame love for my 4” Model 15.

[Unclenick]

If you look at the differences in loads of H110 and 296 in some manuals, you realize that even though they are the same powder, there has been some variation in the lots over time. The maximum loads listed have mist likely changed periodically for the same reason. So, I would suggest that when you work up a successful load with it, you note the average velocity from your gun, and check new lot loads against that standard under the same conditions and adjust to a matching velocity if you find your new lot is too frisky.

[RoyceP]

I bought my Model 19-5 around mid 1982. According to Roy it shipped from S&W around late 1980.

There was no internet then. I was afraid of leading so I only shot jacketed bullets. Most of my reloads were 110 grain or 125 grain JHPs from either Hornady or Sierra. I tended towards maximum loads of either W296 or Hercules 2400 powder. The same loads out of a friend's 2" Smith would clear an indoor range out immediately. Great big fireball from a short barrel.

Today I mostly shoot cast bullets. Same revolver, the nickel plating is gone under the top strap but otherwise zero damage.

[gwpercle]

In the RCBS Cast Bullet Reloading Manual #1 -
357 magnum (handgun section )
w/ 158 gr SWC - GC bullet ( RCBS #38-158-SWC)

16.5 grs of H-110 @ 1243 fps is their listed Starting Load .

The Maximum load is shown as 17.5 grs. - H-110 @ 1307 fps .

Loads are with magnum primers , tested in 6" barreled Ruger Security Six revolver .

Your load of 16.5 grs. @ 1243 fps is a sane loading ... in the modern S&W model 65 it should be just fine ... The revolver is built of modern steels and made to shoot the 357 magnum cartridge ... S&W made upgrades and improvements to the model 65 knowing 357 magnums were going to be fiored in it .

Being i'm a Card Carrying Cajun ... I say ... "CHOOT 'EM " !
I don't think you will have any problems with this sane 357 load ...
I have seen some loads that hit 1500 fps and those Scare the Beejeezus outta Me !
Gary
from down on the Bayou

[44 AMP]

I have a Hornady book that lists 16.5gr H 110 as the max load with their 158grm JHP. Velocity from an 8 3/8" S&W Model 27 is 1250fps.
Primers are Fed 200

Same gun with their 160gr FMJ shows a max load of H110 as 15.9gr for 1250fps.

Another edition shows 15.6gr HG110 as max with the 158gr XTP from an 8" Colt Python. Velocity 1250fps. Primers are Win.

I have a Speer book showing 17.5gr H110 giving 1272fps with their 158gr fired from a 6" barrel Ruger Security Six. Primer is CCI 550.

Point here is different tests, different guns, different times, show different results and what is in the loading manuals is what they did, but its not holy writ and may or may not be what your gun does.