Savage Model 23a or ????

UpandAtIt · February 14, 2010, 12:16 PM

I bought this via my C&R license last week.

I have for your viewing pleasure is what I think is a Savage Model 23a .22lr Savage Sporter. I say "THINK" because there are NO markings on the barrel, not even a serial number. I have a few Savage 23a's and they all have the typical roll stamp on the barrel, the serial in front of the bolt on the right side and caliber on the left side near the safety.

This one has nothing to indicate what it is. It looks like and acts like a Savage 23a. The only real difference is the rear sight on this one. My other Savage 23a's have a dovetail rear sight or peep sight. This one has a screwed in manual elevator rear sight where there would have been a dovetail but there is no dovetail cut. This one uses a standard 19NRA / 23a magazine with the pull knob on the bottom. The buttplate is BLANK with no Savage trademarked impressions.

I have not cleaned or otherwise changed this rifle yet. The bore is dark but not pitted. It is very dirty and grimey. A good Kano Kroil cleaning will solve that. This rifle just looks older than my other 23a's, even in the machining cuts as well as fit and funtion.

Here are a few pictures. Any thoughts on the origin or the pedigree of this rifle ?

PetahW · February 14, 2010, 09:50 PM

[Any thoughts on the origin or the pedigree of this rifle ? ]

FWIW, I seen more than a few guns come out of different factories in pieces, before they were marked or serial numbered.

"Lunch Pail" guns, as it were.

A second alternative is that Savage/Stevens was notorious for making whatever of their firearms in whatever manner some bulk order specified - cheap; and was scrupulous about "losing" serial number/production records ever since Congress tried to tag them for war profiteering just after WWI.

.

UpandAtIt · February 14, 2010, 11:43 PM

Any clue as to how I should write this one into my bound book for C&R. No model number, no serial number and even no manufacturer name. I have had many pieces with no serial number before, but never one with NO markings at all.

I love these 23a's and 1919 / 19 NRA and 23aa's, just fantastic tack drivers and super solid enough to easily take Stingers and Yellow Jackets. I have been hitting 3 inch groups at 200 yards, off hand, no rest, just using a peep site and same lot 22lr CCI Stinger ammo.

Most of these 23a's I have been picking up for about $100 or so and with my C&R cuts way down on any transfer fee's from 01 FFL holders.

I have a completely junked out one that I am thinking of relining to a .17 Mach II, I have a request for quote out to a couple barrel reliner gunsmiths for the job, not much else would have to be changed I believe. Then restoring all the wood and furniture as best as possible.

gyvel · February 15, 2010, 08:37 AM

Put it in your book as exactly what it is: Make: "Unknown;" Model: "Unknown;" Serial number: "NSN."

PetahW · February 15, 2010, 09:26 AM

FWIW, I would make the book entries:

Make: "Unmarked Savage Arms type"
Model: "Unmarked Savage Model 23 type"
Serial: "NSN"

.

jaguarxk120 · February 15, 2010, 08:31 PM

Could this rifle be the earlier model 22?

UpandAtIt · February 16, 2010, 03:00 AM

It could be a really early first run or something of the 23a. The more I look at this gun, the more I am convinced it is as perhaps what PetahW says it is. Most likely a "Lunch Pail" gun made by an employee that took the parts from the factory piece by piece before it was serial numberd. What stymies me there is, most guns I have seen are given a serial number the second the receiver blank - forging - casting is made in its uncut or machined condition.

The barrel cannot be replaced as the barrel and receiver are one in the same, machined together.

Earlier than the 23a was the model 1919/19NRA and it looks way different than the Savaage 23a Savage Sporter.

I wrote to savage with detailed photos but have not heard from them as to why no Savage Roll Stamp or the serial number.

gyvel · February 17, 2010, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Put it in your book as exactly what it is: Make: "Unknown;" Model: "Unknown;" Serial number: "NSN."

I stand by my original suggestion. Anything else on your part is just speculation. For all you know, the gun could have been made in the Khyber Pass.

Why volunteer ANY unnecessary information to ATF?

UpandAtIt · March 5, 2010, 11:03 AM

Update from Savage Arms on this rifle:

Savage wrote back and basically said they do not have a history department but that this gentleman is the "UNOFFICIAL" private historian for them. He does not carry parts or guns.

John Callihan
53 Old Quarry Rd.
Westfield, MA 01085
413-568-2084 M-F 6 - 8 PM

This ends up being a Model 1917 .22 s-l-lr Sporter (precursor to the 19 NRA & 23a Sporter) and has a 1907 Magazine which is very similar to the Model 23a and they will interchange with minor fitting. It is odd that this magazine actually handles shorts just as easy as long and long rifle rounds. The 23a magazine cannot handle shorts.

The serial number is on the INSIDE of the Bolt Rails and the bolt needs to be removed and a small flash light to see the number.

The bolt is significantly different than the model 23a. Pictures show the difference. The 1917 bolt on top and the 23a bolt on the bottom.

The magazines differ only in the back guide spine and stamping print. The cost differences though are the 1917 will go for about $100 and the 23a about $75 each.

The basic value on this 1917 Sporter Rifle currently is about $300 in its current condition, not bad seeing that I paid $112 for it. He did say that a 1917 in .25-20 or .32-20 can go as high as $900 as long as all the parts and condition are there.

I find it very cool how small or barely seen nuances in firearms change from model to model. These nuances can change the value drastically.

TX Hunter · March 5, 2010, 12:15 PM

Thats a nice looking old .22 It apears to be well made, and handy.

UpandAtIt · March 5, 2010, 05:32 PM

I have seriously shot a lot of the older .22's and by far, these model 23a and 19 NRA and cousins are the most accurate I have ever shot. Anschutz bought the barrel rights and their rifles even today have the same groove twist and measurements in their olympic style .22's. Savage and Anschutz has had a partnership for many years.

I will scan a target I shot using standard off the shelf CCI Mini-Mags at 100 yards, sandbagged, the group literally was a 1 1/2" ragged hole at 10 shots (two magazines full). This was with the standard open buckhorn sights, not the peep sight or scope.

The look and feel is that of a military trainer (1903 look and feel) with a full travel bolt and I think much better than the Mossberg M44 or the M2 Trainer. These Savages can still be found for reasonable money on gunbroker and stuff ($150 - $300.). I have honestly paid up to $100 just for a decent magazine for them.

February 14, 2010, 12:16 PM	#1
UpandAtIt Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Posts: 233	Savage Model 23a or ???? I bought this via my C&R license last week. I have for your viewing pleasure is what I think is a Savage Model 23a .22lr Savage Sporter. I say "THINK" because there are NO markings on the barrel, not even a serial number. I have a few Savage 23a's and they all have the typical roll stamp on the barrel, the serial in front of the bolt on the right side and caliber on the left side near the safety. This one has nothing to indicate what it is. It looks like and acts like a Savage 23a. The only real difference is the rear sight on this one. My other Savage 23a's have a dovetail rear sight or peep sight. This one has a screwed in manual elevator rear sight where there would have been a dovetail but there is no dovetail cut. This one uses a standard 19NRA / 23a magazine with the pull knob on the bottom. The buttplate is BLANK with no Savage trademarked impressions. I have not cleaned or otherwise changed this rifle yet. The bore is dark but not pitted. It is very dirty and grimey. A good Kano Kroil cleaning will solve that. This rifle just looks older than my other 23a's, even in the machining cuts as well as fit and funtion. Here are a few pictures. Any thoughts on the origin or the pedigree of this rifle ?

March 5, 2010, 11:03 AM	#9
UpandAtIt Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Posts: 233	Update from Savage Arms Update from Savage Arms on this rifle: Savage wrote back and basically said they do not have a history department but that this gentleman is the "UNOFFICIAL" private historian for them. He does not carry parts or guns. John Callihan 53 Old Quarry Rd. Westfield, MA 01085 413-568-2084 M-F 6 - 8 PM This ends up being a Model 1917 .22 s-l-lr Sporter (precursor to the 19 NRA & 23a Sporter) and has a 1907 Magazine which is very similar to the Model 23a and they will interchange with minor fitting. It is odd that this magazine actually handles shorts just as easy as long and long rifle rounds. The 23a magazine cannot handle shorts. The serial number is on the INSIDE of the Bolt Rails and the bolt needs to be removed and a small flash light to see the number. The bolt is significantly different than the model 23a. Pictures show the difference. The 1917 bolt on top and the 23a bolt on the bottom. The magazines differ only in the back guide spine and stamping print. The cost differences though are the 1917 will go for about $100 and the 23a about $75 each. The basic value on this 1917 Sporter Rifle currently is about $300 in its current condition, not bad seeing that I paid $112 for it. He did say that a 1917 in .25-20 or .32-20 can go as high as $900 as long as all the parts and condition are there. I find it very cool how small or barely seen nuances in firearms change from model to model. These nuances can change the value drastically.

February 14, 2010, 09:50 PM	#2
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	[Any thoughts on the origin or the pedigree of this rifle ? ] FWIW, I seen more than a few guns come out of different factories in pieces, before they were marked or serial numbered. "Lunch Pail" guns, as it were. A second alternative is that Savage/Stevens was notorious for making whatever of their firearms in whatever manner some bulk order specified - cheap; and was scrupulous about "losing" serial number/production records ever since Congress tried to tag them for war profiteering just after WWI. .

February 14, 2010, 11:43 PM	#3
UpandAtIt Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Posts: 233	Any clue as to how I should write this one into my bound book for C&R. No model number, no serial number and even no manufacturer name. I have had many pieces with no serial number before, but never one with NO markings at all. I love these 23a's and 1919 / 19 NRA and 23aa's, just fantastic tack drivers and super solid enough to easily take Stingers and Yellow Jackets. I have been hitting 3 inch groups at 200 yards, off hand, no rest, just using a peep site and same lot 22lr CCI Stinger ammo. Most of these 23a's I have been picking up for about $100 or so and with my C&R cuts way down on any transfer fee's from 01 FFL holders. I have a completely junked out one that I am thinking of relining to a .17 Mach II, I have a request for quote out to a couple barrel reliner gunsmiths for the job, not much else would have to be changed I believe. Then restoring all the wood and furniture as best as possible.

February 15, 2010, 08:37 AM	#4
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Put it in your book as exactly what it is: Make: "Unknown;" Model: "Unknown;" Serial number: "NSN."

February 15, 2010, 09:26 AM	#5
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	FWIW, I would make the book entries: Make: "Unmarked Savage Arms type" Model: "Unmarked Savage Model 23 type" Serial: "NSN" .

February 15, 2010, 08:31 PM	#6
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	Could this rifle be the earlier model 22?

February 16, 2010, 03:00 AM	#7
UpandAtIt Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Posts: 233	It could be a really early first run or something of the 23a. The more I look at this gun, the more I am convinced it is as perhaps what PetahW says it is. Most likely a "Lunch Pail" gun made by an employee that took the parts from the factory piece by piece before it was serial numberd. What stymies me there is, most guns I have seen are given a serial number the second the receiver blank - forging - casting is made in its uncut or machined condition. The barrel cannot be replaced as the barrel and receiver are one in the same, machined together. Earlier than the 23a was the model 1919/19NRA and it looks way different than the Savaage 23a Savage Sporter. I wrote to savage with detailed photos but have not heard from them as to why no Savage Roll Stamp or the serial number.

March 5, 2010, 12:15 PM	#10
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	Thats a nice looking old .22 It apears to be well made, and handy.

March 5, 2010, 05:32 PM	#11
UpandAtIt Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Posts: 233	I have seriously shot a lot of the older .22's and by far, these model 23a and 19 NRA and cousins are the most accurate I have ever shot. Anschutz bought the barrel rights and their rifles even today have the same groove twist and measurements in their olympic style .22's. Savage and Anschutz has had a partnership for many years. I will scan a target I shot using standard off the shelf CCI Mini-Mags at 100 yards, sandbagged, the group literally was a 1 1/2" ragged hole at 10 shots (two magazines full). This was with the standard open buckhorn sights, not the peep sight or scope. The look and feel is that of a military trainer (1903 look and feel) with a full travel bolt and I think much better than the Mossberg M44 or the M2 Trainer. These Savages can still be found for reasonable money on gunbroker and stuff ($150 - $300.). I have honestly paid up to $100 just for a decent magazine for them.