#1 Buckshot...The Tactical Choice for H/D

The Protector · March 15, 2006, 09:20 PM

After research, I found that #1 Buckshot is far superior to the cliche 00 Buckshot everyone always talks about. Since it has many more pellets (still at .30 caliber), it has the ability to create a much more traumatic wound without the worry of overpenetration that goes along with shooting 00 Buck for HD. See the following links:

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/conten...hot_1_rem.html

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

My HD weapon of choice is the Remington 870 Express 18" barrel, synthetic 12 gauge. Holds 6+1. I am personally loading Winchester Super X 3" magnum #1 Buckshot with 24 pellets. Hmmm.... 24 pellets X .30 caliber= More stopping power than 9 pellets of 00 Buck (.33 caliber) will ever offer.

Just ask the International Wound Ballistics Association.

The Protector

Gewehr98 · March 15, 2006, 10:02 PM

If you say so, I'll take it under advisement.

Still staying with Vietnam-issue Full brass 00 Buck in my 20" 870MkI w/Extra Full Turkey choke, thank you very much. I've practiced with it, patterned it, know how it hits, and consider it entirely adequate for the job at hand.

Besides, I've got 30 each .30 caliber projectiles for Mr. Bad guy in the Kalashnikovs that share the HD role in our house.

dave0520 · March 15, 2006, 10:49 PM

Well your comparing apples to oranges. You talk about a 3" #1 load but a 2 3/4" 00 load. Plus, the heavier 2 3/4" 00 buck loads use 12 pellets, and the 3 inchers use 15 pellets. That's a whole lot of smackdown right there.

hawken50 · March 15, 2006, 10:52 PM

Quote:

20" 870MkI w/Extra Full Turkey choke

i'm speaking from ignorance here, but i had read you shouldn't put buck shot thru a turkey choke? obviously you haven't had any problems with it. i'll have to give it a try, my turkey gun would make a great hd piece.

Gewehr98 · March 16, 2006, 08:56 AM

Lead buckshot, steel turkey choke. Plus, you want one of those turkey chokes that extend past the barrel's muzzle if you're running steel buckshot. Like this:

Dave McC · March 16, 2006, 08:59 AM

I tend to agree about 1 buck. However.....

Can you cite any actual cases where 1 buck worked when 00 failed?

A standard 9 pellet 00 buck load runs extremely close to 100% one shot stops.

R/R 8 pellet and less loads are statistically identical.

While the tests make 1 look very good, 00 has the track record.

orangeTJ · March 16, 2006, 11:45 AM

Use whatever you're comfortable with. Frankly, I think the entire argument is totally academic. In reality, do you think it's really going to make much difference down range? I can't imagine that anybody shot at in-house range with either load is going to have much fight left in him. It seems a bit like asking "which is more effective on whitetail at 50 yards - .30-06 or .338?". Either one would get the job done with plenty of leftover margin.

mathman · March 16, 2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Use whatever you're comfortable with. Frankly, I think the entire argument is totally academic. In reality, do you think it's really going to make much difference down range? I can't imagine that anybody shot at in-house range with either load is going to have much fight left in him. It seems a bit like asking "which is more effective on whitetail at 50 yards - .30-06 or .338?". Either one would get the job done with plenty of leftover margin.

exactly...good post

cobain187 · March 16, 2006, 02:13 PM

I don't think the main benefit is increased stopping power, but reduced penetration that is still effective.

#1 16 pellets with 16.5" penetration

00 - 9-12 pellets with 20-23" of penetration

It matters to me because I don't live alone. Factor in thick clothing on the bad guy and i think 16" is the right depth. (To reliably stop him, but be very weak if it exits him, which it may not.

OBIWAN · March 16, 2006, 03:17 PM

At HD ranges most shots will result in ALL the pellets and the wad going through the bad guy.

Think about it......

In most homes a 20' room is a big room

Death from Afar · March 17, 2006, 01:11 AM

Can I suggest that for HD either 00 buck, or #1 buck depends soley on your gun. As always, a patterning test will be very revealing as to what the shot will do. YOu may find that 00 buck at the range you want has enough of a gap in the pattern that a side on perp may be missed entirely. Of course, if you are keen, you could pattern both , and be prepared to do a quick load swap, which with practice is easy enough to do, like a slug change. I found with my last 870, #4 buck had the patterns I want, but with my new P, 00 is the way to go.

The Protector · March 17, 2006, 09:00 PM

The whole reason I posted this was that basically, #1 buck has been proven under laboratory conditions (ballistic gelatin) more effective at causing more trauma, WITHOUT AS MUCH RISK OF OVER-PENETRATION. That's my whole point. Take it for what it's worth. Just trying to pass on good info to the good guys like us.

Gewehr98 · March 17, 2006, 10:11 PM

I promise I'll leave enough of the bad guy for the coroner to identify. Over-penetration in my cinder-block beach house is of no concern to me. Padded or kevlar-vested hooligans, like the ones who tried a home invasion robbery at my last assignment, are a concern, hence my 00 buck loadout. Your mileage may vary, of course.

The Protector · March 17, 2006, 10:48 PM

In reference to your cinderblock walls ..... point taken. I'm in an apartment so I have concern for my neighbors too. Sounds like 00 buck works great for you and #1 buck works great for me. No arguments, just different perspectives.

swampdog · March 17, 2006, 11:01 PM

Peter Capstick liked #1 buck for the same reasons that have been listed above,
20 or so years ago.
00 has always done what I wanted it to so I've never tried it. If I ever have to
go into the long grass after a wounded leopard I'll get some.

Nice remington, Gewehr98. I really like the bayonet. Just seeing that rig should
give your average crackhead a heart attack. Is it a kit or a custom job?

OBIWAN · March 17, 2006, 11:53 PM

I guess the question is

Why a shotgun

Because it "patterns"

Not at 20' (or less)

We are not hunting birds here people!

Gewehr98 · March 18, 2006, 12:21 PM

Back in the Vietnam days, Uncle Sam bought a bunch of complete shotguns and a bunch of kits to come up with a military bayonet-lugged Remington 870. I found a couple of the kits a decade or so ago, and built my own 870Mk1, I especially like how strongly the magazine tube is attached to the barrel. The bayonet doesn't fit into my tactical picture, especially after I tried it as a nightstand gun for a bit.

I fix bayonet every now and then to demonstrate how the system works on the shotgun. It's wicked, but nowhere near as wicked as the older Winchester Model 1897 and 1912 trench guns with their long bayonets:

Suffice it to say, Mr. Bad Guy probably won't meet the gun with cold steel attached. If I can't get the job done with all the buckshot in the magazine, then maybe he deserves a second chance at living vs. getting poked in the innards with an M16 bayonet.

March 15, 2006, 10:02 PM	#2
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Ok. If you say so, I'll take it under advisement. Still staying with Vietnam-issue Full brass 00 Buck in my 20" 870MkI w/Extra Full Turkey choke, thank you very much. I've practiced with it, patterned it, know how it hits, and consider it entirely adequate for the job at hand. Besides, I've got 30 each .30 caliber projectiles for Mr. Bad guy in the Kalashnikovs that share the HD role in our house. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

March 15, 2006, 10:49 PM	#3
dave0520 Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Location: Philadelphia suburbs Posts: 394	Well your comparing apples to oranges. You talk about a 3" #1 load but a 2 3/4" 00 load. Plus, the heavier 2 3/4" 00 buck loads use 12 pellets, and the 3 inchers use 15 pellets. That's a whole lot of smackdown right there. __________________ si vis pacem, parabellum

March 16, 2006, 08:56 AM	#5
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Not a problem. Lead buckshot, steel turkey choke. Plus, you want one of those turkey chokes that extend past the barrel's muzzle if you're running steel buckshot. Like this: __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

March 16, 2006, 11:45 AM	#7
orangeTJ Member Join Date: November 16, 2001 Posts: 37	Ok Use whatever you're comfortable with. Frankly, I think the entire argument is totally academic. In reality, do you think it's really going to make much difference down range? I can't imagine that anybody shot at in-house range with either load is going to have much fight left in him. It seems a bit like asking "which is more effective on whitetail at 50 yards - .30-06 or .338?". Either one would get the job done with plenty of leftover margin.

March 17, 2006, 01:11 AM	#11
Death from Afar Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND Posts: 1,635	Can I suggest that for HD either 00 buck, or #1 buck depends soley on your gun. As always, a patterning test will be very revealing as to what the shot will do. YOu may find that 00 buck at the range you want has enough of a gap in the pattern that a side on perp may be missed entirely. Of course, if you are keen, you could pattern both , and be prepared to do a quick load swap, which with practice is easy enough to do, like a slug change. I found with my last 870, #4 buck had the patterns I want, but with my new P, 00 is the way to go. __________________ "Beware of the Man with one gun...he probably isnt into guns enough to be safe with it".

March 15, 2006, 09:20 PM	#1
The Protector Junior Member Join Date: March 15, 2006 Posts: 3	#1 Buckshot...The Tactical Choice for H/D After research, I found that #1 Buckshot is far superior to the cliche 00 Buckshot everyone always talks about. Since it has many more pellets (still at .30 caliber), it has the ability to create a much more traumatic wound without the worry of overpenetration that goes along with shooting 00 Buck for HD. See the following links: http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/conten...hot_1_rem.html http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm My HD weapon of choice is the Remington 870 Express 18" barrel, synthetic 12 gauge. Holds 6+1. I am personally loading Winchester Super X 3" magnum #1 Buckshot with 24 pellets. Hmmm.... 24 pellets X .30 caliber= More stopping power than 9 pellets of 00 Buck (.33 caliber) will ever offer. Just ask the International Wound Ballistics Association. The Protector

March 16, 2006, 08:59 AM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I tend to agree about 1 buck. However..... Can you cite any actual cases where 1 buck worked when 00 failed? A standard 9 pellet 00 buck load runs extremely close to 100% one shot stops. R/R 8 pellet and less loads are statistically identical. While the tests make 1 look very good, 00 has the track record.

March 16, 2006, 02:13 PM	#9
cobain187 Junior Member Join Date: October 5, 2004 Posts: 12	I don't think the main benefit is increased stopping power, but reduced penetration that is still effective. #1 16 pellets with 16.5" penetration 00 - 9-12 pellets with 20-23" of penetration It matters to me because I don't live alone. Factor in thick clothing on the bad guy and i think 16" is the right depth. (To reliably stop him, but be very weak if it exits him, which it may not.

March 16, 2006, 03:17 PM	#10
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	At HD ranges most shots will result in ALL the pellets and the wad going through the bad guy. Think about it...... In most homes a 20' room is a big room

March 17, 2006, 09:00 PM	#12
The Protector Junior Member Join Date: March 15, 2006 Posts: 3	Back to my original point The whole reason I posted this was that basically, #1 buck has been proven under laboratory conditions (ballistic gelatin) more effective at causing more trauma, WITHOUT AS MUCH RISK OF OVER-PENETRATION. That's my whole point. Take it for what it's worth. Just trying to pass on good info to the good guys like us.

March 17, 2006, 10:11 PM	#13
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Thanks for the gelatin info. I promise I'll leave enough of the bad guy for the coroner to identify. Over-penetration in my cinder-block beach house is of no concern to me. Padded or kevlar-vested hooligans, like the ones who tried a home invasion robbery at my last assignment, are a concern, hence my 00 buck loadout. Your mileage may vary, of course. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

March 17, 2006, 10:48 PM	#14
The Protector Junior Member Join Date: March 15, 2006 Posts: 3	In reference to your cinderblock walls ..... point taken. I'm in an apartment so I have concern for my neighbors too. Sounds like 00 buck works great for you and #1 buck works great for me. No arguments, just different perspectives.

March 17, 2006, 11:01 PM	#15
swampdog Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2006 Location: Dismal Swamp, NC Posts: 338	Peter Capstick liked #1 buck for the same reasons that have been listed above, 20 or so years ago. 00 has always done what I wanted it to so I've never tried it. If I ever have to go into the long grass after a wounded leopard I'll get some. Nice remington, Gewehr98. I really like the bayonet. Just seeing that rig should give your average crackhead a heart attack. Is it a kit or a custom job?

March 17, 2006, 11:53 PM	#16
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	I guess the question is Why a shotgun Because it "patterns" Not at 20' (or less) We are not hunting birds here people!

March 18, 2006, 12:21 PM	#17
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	It's a government kit. Back in the Vietnam days, Uncle Sam bought a bunch of complete shotguns and a bunch of kits to come up with a military bayonet-lugged Remington 870. I found a couple of the kits a decade or so ago, and built my own 870Mk1, I especially like how strongly the magazine tube is attached to the barrel. The bayonet doesn't fit into my tactical picture, especially after I tried it as a nightstand gun for a bit. I fix bayonet every now and then to demonstrate how the system works on the shotgun. It's wicked, but nowhere near as wicked as the older Winchester Model 1897 and 1912 trench guns with their long bayonets: Suffice it to say, Mr. Bad Guy probably won't meet the gun with cold steel attached. If I can't get the job done with all the buckshot in the magazine, then maybe he deserves a second chance at living vs. getting poked in the innards with an M16 bayonet. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires