MAKAROV: edify me please

[kcub]

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=f3p64

The P64 is sexy and inexpensive.

[doofus47]

carguychris

Do you mean the CZ 82?

Yep. My bad.
Thanks for the correction.

[Viper99]

With respect to the OP, my gunshop has a Russian Baikal? not sure if it is .380 ro 9x18. Been there a long time and can probably be had for less than $250.

Is this one of the "good ones" since I am not familiar with these guns at all.

Thanks.

[Doyle]

The Russian Baikal is the commercial version. It differers from the military version in two (and sometimes three) obvious places (besides the caliber).

The first is the rear sight. The milspec version is a fixed groove while the commercial version is an adjustable leaf sight. If you want to target shoot, then the adjustable sights are a distinct advantage. If you are wanting a carry piece then they can tend to snag on a holster.

The second difference is with the grip material. Milspec was a bakelite plastic. The commercial grips are a rubber material.

The third occasional difference is the capacity. Some of the commercial versions were produced with a thicker grip to allow for a double stack magazine.

Pretty much all the parts will interchange between the commercial and military versions. $250 isn't a terrible price. I've seem them go for both more and less than that - a lot depends on what part of the country you are in.

[Viper99]

Thanks for the info Doyle.

[carguychris]

Couple of footnotes to Doyle's post, largely for reference of future readers...

The Russian Baikal is the commercial version. It differers from the military version in two (and sometimes three) obvious places (besides the caliber).

FWIW Russian commercial Maks were also sold under the IMEZ, Izhmash, Big Bear Arms, and KBI brand names, along with some names I may not have mentioned. Most of the pistols, however, were the same - the only change was the distributor.

There is one rule, however, that is basically universal for Maks and milsurp Soviet-era Russian firearms in general. The use of the Roman alphabet anywhere but in an importer stamp or an importer-added serial number is the hallmark of a new-production gun made for Western commercial sale. All original Russian military markings use Cyrillic characters, although there is some overlap between both alphabets (e.g. C, P, T).

FWIW importers had to add their own serial numbers to many Russian milsurp firearms to comply with an ATF ruling disallowing the use of characters from other alphabets in the importers' records.

The second difference is with the grip material. Milspec was a bakelite plastic. The commercial grips are a rubber material.

I have, however, seen many Maks of both the military and commercial stripes sold with the "wrong" grips or with BOTH kinds of grips.

As with brown leather clamshell-style military Mak holsters, sets of dark red Bakelite grips seem to substantially outnumber the actual Russian military pistols that came with them. [EDIT: Speaking of which, DON'T pay significantly more for a pistol that comes these items from a seller claiming that they're some sort of expensive rarity; they're not.]

[Doyle]

I have, however, seen many Maks of both the military and commercial stripes sold with the "wrong" grips or with BOTH kinds of grips.

That is correct. My Bulgarian came with rubber grips. I'm guessing the originals were buggered up and the importer stuck rubber grips on it before selling. Since my gun has absolutely no collector value (lots of holster wear) I don't mind having the rubber grips. It actually feels better in my hand.

[Viper99]

The one at my FFL has the star on the grips and they are brown, not black. Will take a closer look when I get back there next week. (if still there) The picture Tallball put out looks pretty much like it. Around same condition.

[lee n. field]

With respect to the OP, my gunshop has a Russian Baikal? not sure if it is .380 ro 9x18. Been there a long time and can probably be had for less than $250.

Is this one of the "good ones" since I am not familiar with these guns at all.

it'd be fine.

The Baikal commercial Makarovs use a funky adjustable sight. I've never had a problem with it, but an aftermarket replacement fixed sight exists that replaces it. You absolutely cannot use a standard rear sight.

Slides that support the normal fixed sights are basically unobtainable.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Viper99

The one at my FFL has the star on the grips and they are brown, not black.

The grips vary somewhat in color, likely depending on who was operating the machinery at State Plastics Plant No. 71 that particular month.

[Ignition Override]

kcub:
Today I bought both a Bulgarian Mak (black grips) and the Czech CZ-82, being unable to decide which had more appeal. They were collected buy the seller's late brother, and there is no evidence that he did any sort of work or mods on them, and they saw very limited use. Expected worse ergonomics on the Mak, which are decent.

As smooth as the CZ's DA trigger pull is, the Mak feels just as smooth. This really surprised me, and with very even pressure, though it's a fairy long trigger pull (good bit better than Ruger LCP...). Both the CZ and Mak feel equally rugged.

The Maks's DA trigger pull is a good bit lighter than on my West German PPK/S and is my first exposure to this very dependable Russian design.
Both gun types are brand new to me.

[Pacman]

I don't know if it's still manufactured today, but when I bought my new Russian model years ago, I bought two cases of Blazer aluminum cased 9x18 ammo. Great shooting ammo and I've never had a jam or misfire. The Makarov is a great shooting, accurate pistol.

[Ignition Override]

Any handguns built during the more widespread Communist era which are not only reported to be very reliable, but have DA and SA triggers as smooth as a (my) modern West German Sig 232 seem to be really underpriced, at today's list prices.

It must be the weight as a carry gun, or concern about future foreign ammo supplies (would increase prices) which limit demand?

Using Russian/East Euro ammo seems to be part of their success. I've only put approx. 150 rds. through my East German.

Do Maks as a group function as well using modern US-made ammo, or is it not weaker than Russian brands?

[kcub]

Anyone with P64 experience? I can't think of a good reason to buy one. They look cool and they're cheap.

[Limnophile]

I have no experience with the P-64, but it's on my list of possible pocket pistols. Probably too long for all but the deepest pockets, but it would be an affordable option. The biggest downside for me is the backward safety, which is not much of an issue because I don't think it can be carried condition 1.

[Ibmikey]

I just checked the back of the safe and pulled out a long forgotten IJ 70. Compared to my EG pistol the Ruskie looks like a High point in fit and finish. I have not fired it in some time(380) but as I remember it was quite accurate, the edges are sharp and little polish before bluing and a vulnerable rear sight. Also found a Beretta 1934 in 380 made in 1942 (army issue) that is a neat little shooter, but that is for a different thread.

[Doyle]

Anyone with P64 experience? I can't think of a good reason to buy one. They look cool and they're cheap.

Yep. If you use the forum search (actually,it is P-64 with a dash) you'll see lots of comments about them. I've had one that has been one of my primary carry weapons for years. You absolutely must change out the main spring in order to get a good DA trigger pull. They are very reliable and amazingly accurate for such a small frame. Also, while you are changing the main spring put in a heavier recoil spring and it will help with some of the snap of the recoil.

[Mak One]

I have a Russian Mak and a P64 and love them both. Changed the springs in the P64 because recoil was brutal. It's manageable now.

Had a PA-63 and it sure looked nice but had stoppages galore even with good quality FMJ. Traded that POS for a Hi-Point 9mm and never looked back.

[Ignition Override]

If some people suggest a Stronger recoil spring in the P-64 (the difference not specified), does this ever reduce feed reliability?

Curious only because my German PPK/S (.380 Auto) required a weaker Wolff spring, because most modern ammo doesn't quite always blow the slide full aft where every round can be stripped from the magazine (new mag.).

This was my gun smith's explanation.

[Limnophile]

IO,

Wolff Gunsprings sells three recoil springs for the P-64: 18 lb (factory standard), 20 lb, and 22 lb. I infer from there being no underpowered springs offered that the pistol has no trouble pushing the slide back far enough to snag the next round. They offer a calibration kit with one each of the three springs just in case either of the two extrapowered springs proves to be too much; however, I'm guessing Wolff wouldn't offer the 22-lb spring if it tended to cause problems.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Ignition Override

Curious only because my German PPK/S (.380 Auto) required a weaker Wolff spring, because most modern ammo doesn't quite always blow the slide full aft where every round can be stripped from the magazine (new mag.).

This was my gun smith's explanation.

Off topic, I know, but I wonder if this would allow my Zella-Mehlis 7.65 PP to cycle Remchester ammo... it only functions correctly with European ammo and Korean PMC. American ammo constantly fails to eject - the case stovepipes or gets stuck lengthwise in the ejection port, and the next round does not feed. The slide not traveling back far enough due to a too-stiff spring is a logical explanation.

[Doyle]

For P-64 recoil springs, no you would not want to go lighter. Supposedly (although I have never tried any to verify), the original 9x18 milspec ammo (with corrosive primers) wasn't quite as hot as today's commercial loads.

[Ignition Override]

kcub/Doyle: Three middle-aged friends carry the P-64.
As for changing its main spring, a guy nicknamed "Sootch" has a very clear depiction of how one does so, on his Youtube Channel. His videos are informative and factual. He might be one of the guys who says that the resulting SA pull is Very light. Might take getting used to it.

The steps look fairly simple, but as a relative handgun novice my choice would be to let my gun smith do so, in about five minutes.
Does the preferred Wolff spring keep the DA pull pretty smooth? Does the spring reduce the DA pull to something more like the PPK/S, or even less?

Some people state that a heavier recoil spring reduces felt recoil (?). Curious, because my German PPK/S has bluing that is too nice for real carry.

[Doyle]

Yes, a heavier recoil spring does seem to reduce the felt recoil. Laws of physics being what they are, you can't reduce the actual recoil of a given cartridge. The only thing you can do is change your perception of that recoil in your hand. A heavier spring spreads that recoil over a slighly longer time so it doesn't feel quite so "snappy" in your hand.

As to changing the mainspring yourself, unless you are a complete idiot with tools you can do it yourself. All you need is a screwdriver, a punch or something similar to drive out the pin, and a thick bent paperclip or something similar to hold the spring.

Get yourself a little tube of loctite or a bottle of clear nail polish from your wife to use on the grip screw. Over tightening it will crack the grips so use the loctite or nail polish to keep it snug.

[Cheapshooter]

Anyone with P64 experience? I can't think of a good reason to buy one.

Huh, you need a reason other than being a good shooter, and not cost a fortune?
I'd need a lot less safe space if I had to have a good reason!