Load development? "ladder"?

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

G'day I need some help. I have just found out about this "ladder" method of load development and I am reassesing my method.
I have read an article and am still digesting what it all means.
http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/la...planation.html
Who has tried this method?
Is this practicle?
Can it be explained in simple terms?

[Loader9]

Clicking on the link got me an article on load developement. I clicked on the link at the top of the page marked ladder test and there really wasn't much there. I think what you may have seen is called Audettes Ladder. Here's a PDF for you that you can download and print explaining just how it's done and how to read the results.
http://www.washtenawsportsmansclub.o...incredload.pdf

It's the only way I develop loads. It saves time and ammo. And at the price of components today you need to save as much as you can.

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

Thanks LOADER9 this is basicly the same article as the one I read. I am still learning this computing stuff as well, but you have another link that others may be able to use.
Thanks again.

[mkg]

S&C, One thing we have been doing lately is ladder testing.

For instance.

Max load for my 270 is 59 grains H-4831, I eventually wound up with an optimum load of 59.7 grains H4831 which is above max but presented no pressure signs.

I loaded down from max one grain in .2 grain increments and up from max one grain in .2 grain increments.

EDIT EDIT Starting at the lowest powder charge EDIT EDIT

You fire all 10 rounds at the same target keeping track of what loads impact where . Obviously stopping when pressure signs are present. There should be a "node" where a few of the rounds are very close together ( horizontally ) the others should impact higher on the target as the powder charge increases. This node should be the most accurate load for your gun.

I should add that you should allow the barrel to cool between shots ( 10 min.s or so ) so that there is no thermal component to scew results.

The thought being that if 3 rounds with a .6 grain difference impact the same horizontal plane then the powder charge is less critical to the harmonics of the barrel therfore most consistant ie accurate.

You can refine futher by reducing the increments (.1 grains between charges ) and again fire the ladder test and check the results.

Once you have found the OPC ( optimal powder charge ) you can if desired work with the seating depth also using the ladder test.

This is a very simplistic outline if you have specific questions I'll try to help.

Mike

[Wildalaska]

I eventually wound up with an optimum load of 59.7 grains H4831 which is above max but presented no pressure signs.

How do you know whether you are in the danger zone without a pressure guage?

Loading over max is poor reloading IMHO

WildsomanyvariablesAlaska TM

[mkg]

Wild, There were none of the usual pressure signs ... zero flattening of the primer which is usually a first indication of over pressure, There were also no sticky bolt lift issues.

Yes, loading over suggested max loads ( according to the manuals ) MUST be done cafefully and you must be aware of the signs of excess pressure.

Wild when you change powder lot #'s do you rework your loads ... of course you do. It is a needed saftey step. Powder lot# to lot# vary in speed of burn and chemical make up . If you are loading at max charge weight and switch powder lots without reworking your load you're asking to blow a primer, case or worse.

I've had lot# of H4350 that would flatten a primer at 61.5 grains ( in a 300WSM ) and the current lot# is fine up to and including 63.8 grains luckily my NODE is right 62.7 grains .

The short answer is this if you start at a resonable ( median ) load and know what to look for there should be no danger of an over pressure extreme enough to cause damage.

Mike

[Wildalaska]

The short answer is this if you start at a resonable ( median ) load and know what to look for there should be no danger of an over pressure extreme enough to cause damage.

Spin aside, if you load over book max you are asking for trouble.

WildwhyisthatevenanissueAlaska ™

Are you saying that a exeprienced handloader can do it? Whats experience? 5 years? 10 years? 6 months? If you want to do it thats fine, but noobs should know...

You should never exceed maximum loads.

[snuffy]

Are you saying that a exeprienced handloader can do it? Whats experience? 5 years? 10 years? 6 months? If you want to do it thats fine, but noobs should know...

You should never exceed maximum loads.

According to who? If one manual says 61.0 is max for a 180 jacketed bullet, but another says 63.0 is max, for the same basic shape and configuration, who do you believe? (Pick whatever cartridge for that grain weight, it's not any given load).

The max listed has only to do with that particular test gun, it doesn't mean much in your own gun/rifle. For the new reloader, max should never be exceeded.

In my case, I have 40 years of experience in everything from shotgun to black powder. I also have a chronograph and understand how to read it to see if I'm reaching max pressure. Okay, I know there's no direct correlation between velocity and pressure as read on a chrono. BUT when you see the addition of more powder NOT result in an addition in velocity, then you know you're at max pressure.

Without a chrono, I would never exceed max in anything, and never without carefully working up from below.

[mkg]

Wild, No spin here . If you would please define "THE" book. The 3 catalogs I have vary a bit as to what is MAX load for a given bullet weight,barrel lenght , twist rate etc....

I am saying a knowledgable handloader should know what over pressure signs look like regardless of wheather they load over max or not. Pressure signs can occur prior to MAX load . That's why they include text and photos in reloading manuals concerning over pressure.

Experianced and knowledgable are not quite the same thing .

Someone new to handloading should either have someone knowledgable help them get started in handloading ( best case ) or use due diligence as to studying all aspects handloading not just turn to the loads page and pick one. Therein lies the danger.


But back to the original post , since S&C said he was going re-asses his loading method, I assumed that to mean he has some loading experiance, I did point out over pressure signs to be alert for just to be on the safe side.

sorry to have diverted your thread S&C

Mike

[Wildalaska]

If one manual says 61.0 is max for a 180 jacketed bullet, but another says 63.0 is max, for the same basic shape and configuration, who do you believe? (Pick whatever cartridge for that grain weight, it's not any given load).

You dont exceed the max for the specific cartridge and bullet....

Wildthatsbasedonmy40yearsAlaska ™

[wncchester]

I think of the ladder method as a fast way to get passed the loads that don't shoot well. By letting us know the range of charges that may shoot well, the ladder method sure speeds finding the best load and seating depth.

I find it best to keep the load changes small, .2 to .4 gr., depending on the case capacity. A good load will have a fairly wide "null", sometimes as much as a a full grain, so it's easy to spot the holes that indicate the right charge range.

My ladder targets rarely spread horizontally, they tend to spray every which way when the charge is off a node. And I've never seen them walk up the target either, in fact they more often come down instead of up but nothing is set in stone for all that.

And bear in mind that sometimes NO bullet will shoot well in some individual rifles so the ladder method will only show that the rifle is inaccurate.

=============================

A few thoughts in mkg's defense:

* "Spin aside, if you load over book max you are asking for trouble."

If you read the info prior to the loading data itself, note that they point out that for individual rifles, the "less than max loads" may be asking for trouble. And that's correct. WE have to know a little about what we are doing.

* "Are you saying that a exeprienced handloader can do it? Whats experience? 5 years? 10 years? 6 months?

Taken alone, anyones years of "experience" or thousands of rounds loaded don't mean a lot. What counts is the knowledge gained and the wisdom to use it correctly. Some folks never gain any more knowledge of what they are doing after they load their first box of ammo. They are largely devoid of wisdom, no matter how much they think they know because of their vast "experience".

I know a (smart) loader/handgun shooter who has loaded tens of thousands of .45 ACP rounds over the last ten years or so, all on a progressive and with the same charge in most of the ammo. He is no fool but readily admits he really knows little about loading over all.. He IS an expert at making that one load on that one machine but he, wisely, would not exceed any published manual's loads.

Bright loaders who cover a broader range can gain quite a bit of knowledge and wisdom quickly. Why not? If no one tested regions beyond what they read, our knowledge base would never advance and there would be no justification for more than a single loading manual on the market. In fact, it would be foolish to make others wouldn't it? I mean, if some expert has established what is MAX, how can others justify publishing other figures?

* "If you want to do it thats fine, but noobs should know..."

I would certainly agree - for "noobs". Or old hands who have limited abilities. In fact, it is foolish beyond experession for anyone who is new, or has learned little, to exceed the loads in the manual of his choice. I also believe it would be criminally foolish for manual makers to even suggest their data might be exceeded safely by anyone, even with an understanding of how to proceed and how to know when to stop. But, that doesn't mean it isn't safe IF you know what you are doing.

* "You should never exceed maximum loads. "

I agree that it's not normally wise to say, even on the web, that published loads might be safely exceeded. BUT, in in mkg's caution, he DID NOT say how much he might have exceeded the loads or from which manual so he has offered little ecouuragement to noobs. Or others.

IF someone has the experience, knowledge and wisdom to chart his own course it is pointless to castigate him for using his knowledge.

[mkg]

I did go back and edit my earlier post , I had not stated to start at the lowest powder charge .

Mike

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

My reloading experiance. About 25 years ago reloading 12 gauge at school.(sports/clay target) Also watched/helped/hindered some of my uncles reload various rifle calibers. I have recently started to get my own equipment and have prepared 10 x 5 round lots for my .270 starting at MIN load and increasing by 1/2 grain incruments till MAX.
I was going to put them over my chrony and then see what I ended up with. (10 targets)
I will need to do the same for my .222

One thing I have got out of this string, is the need to re-do load developments when powder lot# changes

[mkg]

S&C how about an experiment.

Shoot for group:
Fire four of your loaded ( same charge ) rounds at an individual target for and keep your velocity data. Save the remaining round for now.

When you have finished with your 10 individual targets ( 4 rounds each ) place them in the range bag out of sight.

Shoot for ladder:
Collect your remaining ten rounds ( 1 from each load ) and fire them at a single target also keeping the velocity data for each round and note precisly where each powder charge impacts the target along with the velocity .

Take note of charges that impact on the same horizontal plane, the closer the better . The velocity data should be very close ( within 15 ft/s ) there will be other random impacts with varying velocities . Mine usually walk up the page as charge increases .

Once you have done this pull out your targets fired for group . The loads that were on the same horizontal plane in the ladder method should correlate with your smaller groups shot in the shooting for group phase.

If so ( and it should ) you could have done your load development with 10 rounds VS 50
Or better yet fire the Ladder test first and check for groupings on a horizontal plane remember to note the velocity and impact . Then confirm by firing the remaining 4 rounds of that powder charge for group. If all works out well take whats left home pull the bullet and save your powder.

Mike

[Slamfire]

On another forum, a shooter tried the ladder method. Based on his results, there was no pattern. He posted his target and his data, and asked everyone, "what was he doing wrong"?

No one could really tell him, he had performed the technique "correctly" and yet there was not the "grouping" or "clustering" that you are "supposed" to get. There were a lot of people who used the ladder method, told how they did it, but I was not one of them.

I am a skeptic of the ladder method, though I have never tried it.

I have never tried it because I don't believe in one shot groups.

The ladder method assumes a bunch of things. Several of which is that each shot is a perfect shot, that the velocity and dynamic response of the gun is the exact mean of all shots, and that the shooter error is zero.

Based on my readings, people are seeing "clusters", not shooting clusters.

At best, the ladder method will quickly give you a velocity spread.

[mkg]

SlamFire1

I too was a skeptic until I saw it work on several rifles in several calibers. I have two rifles that I need to check via the ladder test to see if I can improve my current loads .

I will try to post a target later this afternoon , maybe that will help ( pic worth a thousand words thing ) .

The ladder method does require that certain things be done properly.

1).each charge must be weighed not thrown ( aw well it's close will not work )

2) the barrel must be allowed to cool between shots to avoid thermals in the barrel which will change the harmonics.

3) the charge weights used must be in small enough increments as to find the node or nodes ( usually .2 gr. or .3 grains )

4) Without a chronograph you only get half of the story

5) shooter error effects load development no matter what method you use.

6). The bullet you choose will also effect the outcome. Heavy for caliber bullets ( high BC ) fired from a fast twist barrel need time to stabilize. most will not do this at 100 yards

As I said I'll try to post a target tonight with some notes to clarify.


Mike

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

G'day Mike (mkg) I think i'll try this comparison method. My next problem will be to find an opportunity.

[mkg]

Good , Let us know how it works for you .

Mike

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

mkg i've just read your next comment about small increments. Before I go I'll load a 1/4 & 3/4 grain charge to go between each set I already have.

[wncchester]

Slamfire: "No one could really tell him, he had performed the technique "correctly" and yet there was not the "grouping" or "clustering" that you are "supposed" to get. There were a lot of people who used the ladder method, told how they did it, but I was not one of them."

I saw that post too. There is no magic in the ladder method, if the rifle or rifle and bullet and load combo are not accurate the method of load development won't make it accurate. That guy needed to try another bullet or powder or both.

[mkg]

S&C, Good on ya mate ( is that right ? )

If I understand correctly that would give you loads at approximately .25 grain incremants , correct ? My scale is only accurate to .1 grains.

If that is the case I would most definately fire the ladder first.

wncchester, I'm not familiar with the post you're talking about . But, it is true that some rifles will not shoot certian bullets well no matter what you do . My 300WSM hates nosler BT's the 22-250 loves 'em. Come to think of it I had a Remmi 700 SPS in 308 that didn't care for them much either ... but it didn't like anything .


Mike

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

mkg, thats correct on both counts. I will try to get out on Sunday.

[mkg]

Ok guys I'm gonna give it a try.

Range:300 yards
Rifle: Savage model 12 300WSM
26" barrel , 1:10 twist varmit contour
The scope: Weaver GrandSlam 6-20X40

The Cartridge:

Winchester Brass
WLR primer
Berger 185 gr. VLD match
various powder charges
bullet .025 off lands



The second image shows the size / seperation.

62 gr/MV=2991most likely the top of a lower velocity node
62.3 / 3027 = without chrono data might think it's me chrono data shows it's out of the node
62.6/ 3019 = looks good when compared to the following load
62.9/3011 = maybe the top of this node ( could reduce powder charge increments to .1 gr. and go two loads either side to confirm)
63.2/3047 = out of node
63.5/3062 = on same horizontal plane but velocity spead a little wide
63.8 /3019 = same velocity as 62.6 but way high on target , best guess , incomplete powder burn as bullet left barrel

Not exactly what I wanted but they are there.

Mike

[wncchester]

Mike: - "wncchester, I'm not familiar with the post you're talking about . But, it is true that some rifles will not shoot certian bullets well no matter what you do . My 300WSM hates nosler BT's the 22-250 loves 'em. Come to think of it I had a Remmi 700 SPS in 308 that didn't care for them much either ... but it didn't like anything."

We, Slam and I, saw a post showing a ladder test target that had NO indications of any node and the poster asked why. A series of responses included some shots at the ladder method itself, rather than considering that the rifle just didn't like that combo of powder and bullet.

Some of the posted observations and opinons seemed kind of silly but harmless I guess. As you note, sometimes that's the way it is and no magic loading method will change it!

[wncchester]

Mike - ref your "012.jpg" (122.4 KB, 0 views) photo

THAT my friend, is an example of a valid ladder test to find a charge node! If you use the load with the middle charge you will have something that won't be too critical of tiny charge or case or primer variations and, likely, will be somewhat temperature insensitive too.

Now, do it once more and vary the seating depth by maybe .010", both ways. Stay OFF the lands but back out to maybe .095" and see if you can find a clear node for seating too.

Excellant start!