Pulling the trigger on a "restored" 1911...

[Skans]

I've decided to buy a restored 1911 with a mfg date of 1913. I have always wanted a nice, correct, complete example from 1912 - early 1913.

I know the risks, the issues regarding restoration and the fact that it will not appeal to a number of collectors, etc. I am not under any delusion that this will be the same as a 98% original gun that would cost 10K+. However, original parts and correct markings is a bigger concern to me over having the original finish.

I don't have the gun yet, but I have purchased it - will get it in a couple of weeks. I do want to inspect the roll marks to see if they have been re-engraved or if they appear to be original to the gun. This is important to me. I also want to check the parts (barrel as well) for originality to that date of mfg. Can someone direct me to some pictures (or give a verbal explanation of what to look for) with regard to re-engraved markings vs. rolled markings. I am not an expert in this area and am looking to learn about this. Thanks.

[BoogieMan]

Roll mark -vs- engrave- bring a loop and look at the lettering close. Engrave will have tool marks, swirls. The other key would be if there is raised material around the edges of the lettering it would indicate that its stamped or rolled. Seeing as its been refinished im not sure that any raised areas would be intact.

[James K]

I would not have high hopes that a restored gun would have all original parts, but you might be in luck. Frankly, there is no time or space here to list all the points you would need to check for originality to that date of manufacture. All I can suggest is to post high quality pictures and let the folks look at what you have.

One point to look at regarding slide roll marks is "skinny" letters. That lettering was put on by a roll stamp; each of the letter parts (the center post of the "T" for example) has a triangular shape where it is pressed into the steel. If some of the steel of the slide is removed (buffed or planed - "shaved"), the straight part of the letter will appear thinner than normal. Not a big deal, but it is a sure sign of a restoration, even though the finish may look good.

Jim

[Gunplummer]

You will definitely know if the trigger is right. I remember when Essex was the only aftermarket frame in town. They used the original 1911 prints and an A-1 trigger was too short to use in them. When I was in Europe I would still run into 1911 guns still in the system in some units. Heck of a design.

[Jim Watson]

What do you think will have been done to a "restored" gun?

If it was in such good condition that restoration comprised only a reblue with the proper grit polish, that is a pretty expensive gun.
Refreshed markings are usual in full restorations of well worn guns. I have heard of hand engraved, machine engraved, and laser cut markings.

Coolgunsite.com has descriptions and pictures of 1911s from different eras. Unfortunately, their pictures of a 1913 gun are not very clear. But there is still a lot of good information.

The barrel being a wear part, catching a gun that old with its original or even a "correct" barrel is going to be a real accomplishment. You have to look for a faint H and P stamped in the right location and orientation.

[mag1911]

One quick thing to check; a slide that early won't have the 1913 patent date.

early slide
http://coolgunsite.com/images/1911/colt6453/pat2.jpg

vs.

later slide
http://coolgunsite.com/images/1911/c...9/MVC-851F.JPG

[j-framer]

Skans,

This purchase is a big mistake. Back out if you still can.

I see in your post a puzzling contradiction. The terms "nice, correct and complete" simply don't accord with a refinish. There is no reconciling the two. You are concerned about replaced parts, but a re-blue is nothing but a replaced finish - the most important "part" of all. There is nothing more incorrect, incomplete and generally "not nice" than a reblue. It is far preferable to have one that is worn white from honest use. I can't picture someone caring about original parts, markings, etc. and not caring about the originality of the blue.

A gun's finish (especially where early Colt autos are concerned) is EVERYTHING. It is the face of the gun, so to speak - the aspect of it that strikes you visually before you have a chance to examine anything in detail. It is the single most important feature of the gun from a collectibility standpoint, and the importance of its originality and condition cannot be overemphasized.

I know you say you have considered this acquisition, and I realize that your goals and priorities may not jibe with those of the hardcore collecting community, but I guarantee that you will regret spending money on this if you follow through with the purchase. The reason I am sure of this is that you clearly are interested in the the historical aspect of the 1911 - otherwise, you'd simply be buying one of the many newly manufactured ones out there. Instead, you have sought out an early gun. And the same interest that has made you desire an early 1911 will, I promise, make you come to hate that refinished thing every time you see it. Maybe not right away, but eventually.

[James K]

Another point is that if that gun is military, a military gun made in 1913 would likely have been in service at least through 1945, if not later. In that time, it might well have been rebuilt more than once, so having any original parts would seem unlikely. If then, after it left service, it was "restored", it will have no original finish and parts might have been replaced or refinished.

There is no sin in owning a rebuilt or refinished or restored gun as a using firearm. But such a gun is not a collectible and one should not pay collector prices for it.

Jim

[paleodog]

I bought a 1911 264xxx range serial number from an old WWII vet some years ago for $400.00. He fancied himself as a gunsmith, and butchered it up attempting to refinish it. He took a wire brush attached to an electric drill to it that scratched up the grip safety, and did a horrible cold blue job on it. Since it was so boogered up anyway, I sent it to Bill Adair in Texas, and had it restored. He redid all the lettering and the period correct blue, and I must say it is a beautiful 1911. It has the two tone magazine, but has bakelite grips instead of the correct walnut diamond checkered grips, so it probably went through an arsenal rebuild at some point I assume. Probably not a high dollar pistol, but I like it.

[Don P]

I concur with the general consensuses that in all likely hood the gun has been through the military armorers shop more than once and probably the only 2 pieces that are together are the frame and slide and the slide is a maybe.

[2ndsojourn]

Paledog,

"but has bakelite grips instead of the correct walnut diamond checkered grips, so it probably went through an arsenal rebuild at some point I assume."

I think the correct grips for that gun are the hard rubber (Bakelite) grips. And, depending on when the gun was obtained, there's a good chance it's an arsenal rebuild. Not too many of that vintage survive as all original.

[lamarw]

j-farmer said it best.

The collectible pistols are only going up in value. The mix-matches are just staying - well down on the bottom rung.

As has been discussed numerous times in the past, these old pistols are not even shooter grade pistols. The mixed matches examples are just paper weight icons at the most.

Don't take my word for it. I am sure by this time you have done plenty of research on the issue. You certainly know what you are taking on.

[James K]

There is collector interest in authentic arsenal rebuilds, but even those are being faked with "arsenal" marks put on mixmasters or plain junkers. And, no matter what anyone says, it is only a matter of time before a "restored" gun will be passed off as original in "like new" condition at a very high price.

Jim

[paleodog]

So my 1918 vintage 1911 was issued with Bakelite grips? I thought maybe after a later arsenal rebuild, but I was under the impression that original issue 1918 models had the checkered wood grips.

[2ndsojourn]

^^^ paledog,

Awhile back, someone posted a link to a good 1911 site where I learned that, but I didn't save the link and now I can't find the site. Maybe someone will come along and knows that site.

ETA: Here's the site

http://coolgunsite.com/

[RickB]

Pistols made in 1918 were first issued with wooden grips, but that same gun could very well have had plastic grips when issued in 1942, or when issued in 1950, or when issued in 1965, etc.
The 1918 pistol that my dad bought in the early '60s was shipped directly from a U.S. arsenal with M1911A1 grip safety and slide stop, and WWII vintage replacement barrel, but had never been refinished, so even though some parts had been replaced, it was never rebuilt.

[Chris_B]

I want to see photos!

I know we're nuts for vintage firearms here and that restoration of a firearm is not looked on favorably, in the main. My prior hobby is car restoration. Restoration is an accepted fact for old machines that go for over 100K US. Correct restoration of firearms will become more and more acceptable. That said, the un-restored, correct original in comparable aesthetic and functional condition is always worth more- and desired more. That won't change.

[highpower3006]

I do not believe that all guns that went through the post war test and inspect program were necessarily rebuilt. several years ago I had a couple Winchester M1 carbines that were new in all respects. They didn't have the adjustable sights installed and neither of them had the bayonet lug front band. I got them through an estate sale and along with the carbines (in the original boxes they had been shipped in) was the 1964 DCM paperwork stating that they were being sold as unserviceable. Both had the RIA inspection stamp on the stock.

Around the same time I picked up a Remington-UMC 1911 that was original in all respects, including the finish, with an AA (Agusta Arsenal) stamp on the left side of the frame just below the hammer. I had another Remington-UMC at the same time that was also original and the finish matched on both pistols.

I believe that that particular pistol was the exception rather than the rule though and it is hard to imagine a pre-WWII 1911 that remained in service through the second world war that didn't get rebuilt at least once or twice.

It is possible to find war two era guns that have been through an arsenal and, except for the arsenal inspection stamps, are still original. There were so many firearms produced in that time period that many remained unissued until they were released for civilian sale in the early sixties.

I recently picked up a Remington-Rand 1911-A1 that appears to be still in original condition and hasn't been refinished. It has a small RIA stamp on the right side and the initials FK stamped by the trigger on the same side.

There are several clues that lead me to believe that this particular gun hasn't been refinished or messed with.

1. The color is the correct WWII greenish parkerizing.

2. The machining marks on the slide and frame are still sharp. US arsenals sandblasted guns prior to refinishing and that tends to soften the texture left from the original manufacturing process. Aftermarket refinishing is usually accompanied by having the metal bead blasted which leaves a different texture

3. On original guns there were stamps that were applied after the finish, these include the crossed cannons on the rear of the frame and the serial number. On unrefinished guns there will be traces of burnishing in the root of the stamps. This particular gun shows that burnishing.

4. all the parts are correct for the year it was made (1944), although they can be added to a gun to make it 'correct' and I would not take that as a definitive clue to a guns being original.

I know this isn't exactly on topic for the OP's opening post, but I thought it more or less added to some of the followup posts.

Edited to add a couple of pictures: