Squib with both powder and primer present - Page 4

**Unclenick** · October 29, 2015, 12:47 PM

Slamfire,

The mainspring is a good point. Primers are, as Creighton Audette put it, analog to some degree, and a weak strike seem to make them fail to ignite throughout at the same time, same as having a high primer can do. The Palma shooters on the board have commented they change their rifle mainsprings once every six years or so, just to avoid the vertical stringing that starts to happen as they get weak.

MG,

For the same reasons of the analog nature of the primers and because I once that I had a load with which I could distinguish performance of deburred flash holes from those which still had their burrs (spherical propellant again) in a .308, I'm sure something will be apparent from the presence of the corncob. I'm just wondering how much and could it damp a magnum primer until it was no longer delivering a hot enough spark to get adequate ignition. All within the realm of possibility, though it sound like RealGun is pretty careful to get the holes clear.

RealGun,

I didn't register that there was only one clump, so we can take that one off the list of physical clues, it sounds like. I'm glad you switched powders, as 300-MP clearly needs more wringing out. I've been meaning to put a strain gauge on my .44 Mag Encore barrel so I can see how pressure is doing. That would be a safer platform to play with load reduction in as it's easy to look down the tube after every shot.

mehavey · October 29, 2015, 01:17 PM

If I can find some of the stuff here in NoVA, I'll run tests with it this weekend,
looking for shot velocity spread as charge weight goes down/powder away from
the primer (Fed LPs)*

http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_t..._reference.htm
(Feds are my Go2 primers)

TimSr · October 29, 2015, 02:28 PM

I'd be very interested in your results, mehavey. That has been the biggest unanswered question since this powder came out.

Real Gun · October 29, 2015, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Salmoneye - Regardless of whether you have 'moved on' to a more suitable powder, it is statements like this that make people keep responding to this thread:

Quote:

What I am "not open to" is the conclusion that the load caused the squib. There was no physical evidence of that, and it was only one of many rounds fired.

The physical evidence is the squib...

You simply choose to ignore it...

I'm just glad that you did not follow it up with another round... ...

You have a logic and language problem there. The squib didn't cause the squib. Does your personal sparring with me contribute anything?

Metal god · October 29, 2015, 07:10 PM

Quote:

All within the realm of possibility, though it sound like RealGun is pretty careful to get the holes clear.

Respectfully the OP does not get this both ways . IMHO the two most likely causes of his failure is clogged primer pocket or poor powder choice for the application . If he looks at every single flash hole before priming or as they are removed from the sifter as I do . Then it's likely the powder . If he does not inspect each and every case for clogged flash holes . Then there is a good chance that was the issue .

There are more then those things that can cause a squib for sure . It was my understanding of this thread that all others were delegated to the less likely pile . We can go back to him not charging the case properly but that would just take us back to the OP having a sub par reloading process that would go along with media clogging the flash hole .

It just seems that the OP does not get to have it both ways . He is either a meticulous reloader with great attention to detail therefore the powder is the likely cause or he's not really paying attention when reloading and any number of things could have caused the squib . Is there some middle ground there ? Absolutely but I thought this thread had sorted those things out .

On a side note , I'm having a heck of a time trying to plug the flash holes . I mean I can clog the flash no problem but the question is not , can the flash hole be clogged so bad that the primer would not blow it out . I'm sure I could do that . I'm trying to find the happy medium as to it being clogged but not so bad that normal tumbling would never create that type of clog . Maybe I'll drop a piece of media about the same size as the flash hole into the primer then seat it . Then see if it will blow it through the flash hole . Hope it doesn't set off the primer

Xfire68 · October 29, 2015, 08:58 PM

I have only had squibs (Yes more than one) when I did not pay close attention to my case prep. I cleaned them as I always do but did not dry them as I was anxious to load some rounds up. Rule one for me now is to never be in a hurry when reloading.

The moister caused a few (3-4) before I stopped and pulled 300 rounds of 5.56 ammo. Lesson was a big one. I was shooting my AR and had I been a few mags into the shooting session I may have been in rapid fire mode and that would have been crappy!

Metal god · October 30, 2015, 01:24 AM

I did one test dropping a couple corncob chunks into the primer then seating it . They blew right on out . I took pics but I'll do more test tomorrow and post all the results . I have a couple cases that I plugged the flash holes good using a punch . so we'll see how those go .

HiBC · October 30, 2015, 02:46 AM

Realgun:
I wrote:

Quote:

Generally,if I am stumped about a problem ,and I ask for help,I am at least open to the wisdom and experience of those who make a serious attempt to help me.

I'm happy to help,but not interested in arguing.

One question I have for you,if you don't know enough to solve your own problem,how can you know enough to reject the path to solution?

To which you responded:

Quote:

If you are going to bully, at least read the whole thread. Bottom line is I have heeded the cautions and changed powders.

If what someone tells me, an experienced reloader with ability to judge or be skeptical of what others offer, is building on what I believe is a false premise or insufficient reading of the thread before commenting, I am entitled to respond and be respected

I'm noticing your response to straight talk is "I'm being bullied",and you believe "I am entitled to respond and be respected"

And to Tim SR 's comment

Quote:

If you are going to immediately close your mind to any question of the load you are using, there is little point in continuing the discussion, and quite frankly, not sure why you bothered to ask.

You respond:

Quote:

I asked because I was confident, perhaps overly so, that the load did not cause the squib. I was looking for other ideas. If you now need to beat me up for my evolving reasoning on the matter, you are bullying without offering anything useful. Just please read the whole thread first before you launch.

:

Beat up? Bullied?

While there seems to be a double standard going on.

To Salmoneye,you said:

Quote:

You have a logic and language problem there. The squib didn't cause the squib. Does your personal sparring with me contribute anything?
Yesterday 03:28 PM

Throughout this thread you have been dismissive and disrespectful to a number of people,including : the powder and bullet manufacturers if ..What? We don't agree with your position that some outside force is victimizing you to cause your squib?

And you are being bullied??????

Wow.

Just,Wow.

Mr Realgun,...I may have overlooked it,perhaps its there someplace and I missed it.

In response to the heartfelt "Thank You" that you offered (I assume)I will offer

"You are welcome,Sir." :-) Have a nice day.

Salmoneye · October 30, 2015, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real Gun

What I am "not open to" is the conclusion that the load caused the squib. There was no physical evidence of that,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salmoneye

The physical evidence is the squib...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real Gun

You have a logic and language problem there. The squib didn't cause the squib. Does your personal sparring with me contribute anything?

IMNSHO...The load caused the squib...

If you can't follow that, you really shouldn't be preaching about logic and/or language...

fin

Slamfire · October 30, 2015, 08:03 AM

I created a post which offered an explanation of how neither the primer, nor the load could be at fault, and withdrew it. Because in this thread, between the main protagonists, the only accepted causes of the OP's problems are primers and load data.

So guys, have fun trying to figure this one out when you don't want to hear anything but your own solutions.

Real Gun · October 30, 2015, 08:10 AM

HiBC, pop psychology is not helpful.

Real Gun · October 30, 2015, 08:14 AM

Metal God - note that when I tumble, the spent primers are still in the cases. I decap on the press during sizing and then prime on the press. I believe media remaining in the flash hole during loading is then less likely.

Real Gun · October 30, 2015, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Salmoneye - Throughout this thread you have been dismissive and disrespectful to a number of people,including : the powder and bullet manufacturers if ..What? We don't agree with your position that some outside force is victimizing you to cause your squib?

And you are being bullied??????

The above is bullying because you are either mischaracterizing what I wrote or cannot actually quote me as having written any such thing. Why do you need to now torpedo this thread?

Salmoneye · October 30, 2015, 09:00 AM

I can not fathom why you are attributing that quote to me...

mehavey · October 30, 2015, 09:11 AM

Guys..... Why don't we back away a bit until we can get some actual firing data using
ever-decreasing charges to see the burn consistency effect (such as it might be).

**Unclenick** · October 30, 2015, 10:21 AM

Agree.

Slamfire, I'm sorry you withdrew the post. As I said earlier, the weak mainspring is a good possible explanation.

Seems like the whole thread is devolving into the hurt feelings and reactions to same, so I think it's time to close it. Except for Slamfire's missing information, it seems to have covered the realm of possibilities.

October 29, 2015, 12:47 PM	#76
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Slamfire, The mainspring is a good point. Primers are, as Creighton Audette put it, analog to some degree, and a weak strike seem to make them fail to ignite throughout at the same time, same as having a high primer can do. The Palma shooters on the board have commented they change their rifle mainsprings once every six years or so, just to avoid the vertical stringing that starts to happen as they get weak. MG, For the same reasons of the analog nature of the primers and because I once that I had a load with which I could distinguish performance of deburred flash holes from those which still had their burrs (spherical propellant again) in a .308, I'm sure something will be apparent from the presence of the corncob. I'm just wondering how much and could it damp a magnum primer until it was no longer delivering a hot enough spark to get adequate ignition. All within the realm of possibility, though it sound like RealGun is pretty careful to get the holes clear. RealGun, I didn't register that there was only one clump, so we can take that one off the list of physical clues, it sounds like. I'm glad you switched powders, as 300-MP clearly needs more wringing out. I've been meaning to put a strain gauge on my .44 Mag Encore barrel so I can see how pressure is doing. That would be a safer platform to play with load reduction in as it's easy to look down the tube after every shot. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 29, 2015, 08:58 PM	#81
Xfire68 Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2010 Location: Communist State of IL. Posts: 1,562	I have only had squibs (Yes more than one) when I did not pay close attention to my case prep. I cleaned them as I always do but did not dry them as I was anxious to load some rounds up. Rule one for me now is to never be in a hurry when reloading. The moister caused a few (3-4) before I stopped and pulled 300 rounds of 5.56 ammo. Lesson was a big one. I was shooting my AR and had I been a few mags into the shooting session I may have been in rapid fire mode and that would have been crappy! __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF Member

October 30, 2015, 01:24 AM	#82
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	I did one test dropping a couple corncob chunks into the primer then seating it . They blew right on out . I took pics but I'll do more test tomorrow and post all the results . I have a couple cases that I plugged the flash holes good using a punch . so we'll see how those go . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

October 30, 2015, 08:03 AM	#85
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I created a post which offered an explanation of how neither the primer, nor the load could be at fault, and withdrew it. Because in this thread, between the main protagonists, the only accepted causes of the OP's problems are primers and load data. So guys, have fun trying to figure this one out when you don't want to hear anything but your own solutions. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

October 30, 2015, 10:21 AM	#91
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Agree. Slamfire, I'm sorry you withdrew the post. As I said earlier, the weak mainspring is a good possible explanation. Seems like the whole thread is devolving into the hurt feelings and reactions to same, so I think it's time to close it. Except for Slamfire's missing information, it seems to have covered the realm of possibilities. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 29, 2015, 01:17 PM	#77
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	If I can find some of the stuff here in NoVA, I'll run tests with it this weekend, looking for shot velocity spread as charge weight goes down/powder away from the primer (Fed LPs)* http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_t..._reference.htm (Feds are my Go2 primers)

October 29, 2015, 02:28 PM	#78
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	I'd be very interested in your results, mehavey. That has been the biggest unanswered question since this powder came out.

October 30, 2015, 08:10 AM	#86
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	HiBC, pop psychology is not helpful.

October 30, 2015, 08:14 AM	#87
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Metal God - note that when I tumble, the spent primers are still in the cases. I decap on the press during sizing and then prime on the press. I believe media remaining in the flash hole during loading is then less likely.

October 30, 2015, 09:00 AM	#89
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	I can not fathom why you are attributing that quote to me...

October 30, 2015, 09:11 AM	#90
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Guys..... Why don't we back away a bit until we can get some actual firing data using ever-decreasing charges to see the burn consistency effect (such as it might be).