SWC vs. WC

[publius]

What is the reason behind shooting wadcutters at targets instead of semi-wadcutters. Admittedly, I'm not a competition shooter, never even fired a wadcutter that I remember, but SWC's make clean holes in targets. Maybe because a seated WC reduces powder capacity making light loads easier to produce?

[Slopemeno]

Wadcutters cut an even cleaner *easier to score* hole in the target. Notice when you shoot SWC's that the meplat cuts a sharp hole, then the shoulder gives a semi-ragged tear.

[Edward429451]

WC = the larger hole can cut a scoring line where the SWC would have given you the lower score.

WC's are more meplat for more tissue damage on ? Then the speedloader is filled with SWC's for faster reloading.

[kraigwy]

The both cut the same size hole, assuming the same caliber. They use plugs on close shots to see it the touch the line.

In general, WCs are more accurate. SWCs penitrate more.

In most matches WCs are used, in matches where quick reloading is required SWCs are used, As in PPC matches and such.

[LHB1]

WC bullets have the center of gravity closer to the the center of mass than do SWC bullets, theoretically yawing less when spun by the rifling and thus being more accurate. For master class Bullseye shooters and those aspiring to such levels of precision shooting, every little bit helps. One point can determine whether you are in First Place or also ran status. If the body portion of WC and SWC bullets are same diameter, they will cut the same size hole in target paper. When scoring is challenged, the match Referee will insert a certified size scoring plug into the challenged shot hole to help determine actual score.

[BillCA]

The wadcutter is a hole-punch for paper and cuts a nice clean hole that is easier to score than other bullet types. As LHB said, it's also better balanced and tends to wobble less. It used to be (in the 60's & 70's) that a small celluloid square had a .38 caliber circle printed on it in both black and white dashes. This allowed the judge to center the film over a multiple-hole area to determine if it was comprised of 3 or 4 hits or if the bullet actually broke the line between scoring rings (giving the shooter one more point).

Often times, a match doesn't hinge on the difference between 1 or 2 points, but how many bullseyes the shooter has.

[Smaug]

Also worth noting is that some folks think that wadcutters are the best choice for personal defense. They cut sharper holes in paper AND tissue. The wounds will bleed more than a would from a hollowpoint that hasn't expanded.

I believe hollow points are probably better 90% of the time, as they are tested for expansion even through clothing. But if you'd rather know for sure, wadcutters are better.

Kind of like investing in the mutual funds vs. CDs. If you're a CD kind of fellow, wadcutters are a better bet.

[20nickels]

I find it interesting that there are not more full wadcutters in .357 hunting weights 180-200gr. Most I see are either SW or RN. Sillohette games aside, if you are going to shoot something with a cast heavyweight why would you not use a full wadcutter for all the benefits stated above?

[salvadore]

Veral Smith offers molds for 140, 160, and 180 grain 38 molds with extemely wide meplats, not wadcutters but sorta.

[PzGren]

Wadcutters have a bullet with more surface contacting the rifling.

[jaydubya]

In my experience, the meplat of a semiwadcutter cuts a hole its size, while the shoulder often shoves paper back, discoloring it. A wadcutter leaves a hole its own diameter. The difference is quite visible to the eye at ten yards.

Also, a revolver loaded with 148gr. DEWC is easier to get back on target than one loaded with 158gr SWC.

I get my range ammo from www.mastercast.net. Their reloads use hardcast lead bullets. I have fired over 5,000 of them, and have never had a leading problem.

Cordially, Jack

[BillCA]

Also worth noting is that some folks think that wadcutters are the best choice for personal defense. They cut sharper holes in paper AND tissue. The wounds will bleed more than a would from a hollowpoint that hasn't expanded.

I believe hollow points are probably better 90% of the time, as they are tested for expansion even through clothing. But if you'd rather know for sure, wadcutters are better.

Out of a 2" .38 Special, there are a lot of people who think that a hard-cast double-ended wadcutter beats a JHP round. This may be true, given the low velocity out of a short barrel. A .38 caliber hole for sure or an iffy expanding point.

But the downside is that most WC ammo is only loaded to between 700-750 fps from a 6" barrel. This means much less penetration. Some folks used to load hollow-base WC's backwards, leaving a soft lead hollow cavity exposed. Accuracy beyond 7 yards was laughable in some cases.

I find it interesting that there are not more full wadcutters in .357 hunting weights 180-200gr. Most I see are either SW or RN.

One has to be careful about loading lead to .357 Magnum velocities. Barrel leading is a serious concern. A 148g DEWC with a gas-check can be pushed to 1150 fps but it still tends to lead up the barrel.

In the .357 Magnum, a 146g to 158g LSWC-HP seems to work beautifully on most "soft" targets when driven to 1100 fps, IMO.

[20nickels]

I am new to handloading for .357. Why would a gas checked DEWC lead any more than any other checked lead boolit of approximate weight?

[salvadore]

I am not new to hand loading and have never heard of a gas checked dewc. I have never seen any kind of wadcutter that took a gas check. The neat feature of a dewc is that if you load the sprue side up you have a nose pour mould, and a perfect base.

[tipoc]

The wc began as a bullet type meant for target matches. As others have said it provides a nice clean easily measurable hole. Typically the loads for these are mild. As the body of the bullet is inside the case there is less room for powder than with some other type bullets where more of the body of the bulklet is exposed.

The SWC began life as a hunting or personal defense round. The tapered nose was intended to aid in penetration while the sharp edge of the "wc" portion was intended to enhance tissue damage.

In target matches where semis are used the SWC feeds much more reliably and so is used there.

The LSWCHP has a hollowpoint meant to aid in expansion.

tipoc

[44 AMP]

Have the stated advantage of cutting nice clean easily scored full caliber diameter holes in paper targets. They are match ammo. As loaded by ammo makers, they are not intended for self defense or hunting.

Many years ago a friend and I went through quite a few thousand hollow base wadcutters in .38 cal (148gr), and found out a lot about what they are good for , and what they are not.

Loaded ammo is made with swaged bullets, which are pretty soft. Buying bulk wadcutters gives you the same bullets. If you cast your own, you can make them as hard as you want, but there are drawbacks to that idea.

Wadcutters have the most bearing surface in contact with the rifling of any bullet design. If you try to drive them fast (hard cast ones) you find that pressures go up faster than velocity. This rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns.

Wadcutters take up a lot of room in the case, which is a good thing considering the small charges of fast powder used for target shooting. The hollowbased design upsets easily and seal to the bore well, providing a very accurate bullet, as long as it is kept within reasonable velocities. The soft slug does not stay accurate when speeded up, and leads the bore badly.

One old trick we tried out was to load hollow base wadcutters upside down, creating a huge hollow point or cup point bullet. Standard target loads were used, as we were well aware of the risks of driving these slugs too fast. The soft slugs would upset in everything, usually opening up to close to .70 caliber. Penetration was minimal. Loaded even lighter (600fps), they were tremendous fun shooting sage rats and other small game, were quite accurate, and would not reliably penetrate the side of an old refridgerator or 1970s era car body, usually leaving only a large dent in the metal.

SWC are for hunting, self defense, and anything else you need. Wadcutter are for target shooting and plinking, and are best left at that.

One other thing to consider, is that the flat nosed cylinder is the least aerodynamic shape, losing velocity faster over distance than other bullet designs. Using hard cast wadcutters for hunting would probably work well enough, but the flat front end would not only shed speed, it would penetrate the least in tissue as well, compared to other shapes at the same impact velocity. You don't see this kind of ammo on the market (except for the Hammerhead style slugs, which are close, but not full wadcutters), and there is likely a good reason why not.

[Nanuk]

Full wadcutters for defense are laughable. the only exception would be one of the hard cast wide meplate bullets. I have seen people shot by target wadcutters and they were generally ****** off that some so and so shot them. Very angry, but not out of the fight.

[20nickels]

Hi Nanuk
These ****** off people shot with target WC's, werte they moving at target velocities, 3.0gr. of Bullseye or real velocities like 5-6 grains of unique?

[BillCA]

I am not new to hand loading and have never heard of a gas checked dewc. I have never seen any kind of wadcutter that took a gas check. The neat feature of a dewc is that if you load the sprue side up you have a nose pour mould, and a perfect base.

Back in the 70's, we used to buy match wadcutter reloads from a company near Monterey CA. They would also sell us three types of wadcutters; swaged (soft) HBWC, cast BBWC (bevel base WC), and a hard-cast DEWC that would nicely accept a gas-check. IIRC the bullets were made in San Luis Obispo by a company using the name SLO bullet co. (cute pun). We experimented with them and quickly gave up trying to push them very hard. Over 1,000 fps leading was a pain in rump. At 1150 fps, we had to clean the bore every 12 rounds or face a lot of scrubbing later.

I am new to handloading for .357. Why would a gas checked DEWC lead any more than any other checked lead boolit [sic] of approximate weight?

The huge amount of bearing surface the bullet has contributes significantly to the amount of leading it causes. Compared to a LSWC, the full WC has about 30% more contact. Occassionally someone sells a copper washed or plated WC for the added lubricity and we found the hard cast ones good to about 900 fps before leading became obnoxious.

If you try to drive them fast (hard cast ones) you find that pressures go up faster than velocity. This rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns.

Boy howdy do they! We started with a 6" Colt trooper and a 6" Highway Patrolman, both are stout, sturdy guns. We used "slower" powders (AL8 IIRC) and switched to Green Dot. I do recall that moving up 0.4 grains at one point went from a modest load to golly gee-whiz! and the cases had to be persuaded out of the chambers with a rod and hammer.

The bottom line is that a full WC design is best kept at or below about 850-900 fps unless you like removing lead from the barrel and checking for pressure signs.

I have seen people shot by target wadcutters and they were generally ****** off that some so and so shot them. Very angry, but not out of the fight.

About 1976, an Oakland, CA man shot and killed a burglar in his home. One round. Shot hit the perp at 8 o'clock between the 6th-7th ribs and stopped against the inside of the 3rd frontal rib. Subject took 3 steps and collapsed. He expired before EMS could arrive. Shooting distance was approximately 9-12 feet. The bizzare part of this was the 80 y/o homeowner shot him using a 55 year old 2-inch Regulation Police revolver loaded with a 148g HBWC his son had reloaded into a .38 S&W cartridge!

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by BillCA

But the downside is that most WC ammo is only loaded to between 700-750 fps from a 6" barrel. This means much less penetration.

Actually, factory loaded wadcutters still have plenty of penetration even from snubby barrels.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38wadcutter.html

Originally posted by Nanuk

Full wadcutters for defense are laughable. the only exception would be one of the hard cast wide meplate bullets. I have seen people shot by target wadcutters and they were generally ****** off that some so and so shot them. Very angry, but not out of the fight.

Have any documentation of that? Most of us have heard stories about almost any service caliber you can think of failing to stop someone.

Actually, in certain circumstances, I think a target wadcutter makes a lot of sense for self-defense. An example of this would be an older alloy framed snubby that's limited to standard pressure ammo. From a 2" barrel, most standard pressure .38 JHP's have one of two problems. Either they underpenetrate or expansion is iffy at best. A possible exception to this would be some of Buffalo Bore's new loadings but they're likely to be quite "snappy" when fired from an airweight. A wadcutter, on the other hand, has more than enough penetration and recoil is typically light enough to make accurate shots much easier.

[Nanuk]

I don't have any documentation of what I was involved in as a big city cop, Just first hand witnessing the results. We did not have cameras on everything in the 80's. The wadcutters were factory loads. I was merely trying to share my experience with wadcutters, they suck for defense, move on.

[Webleymkv]

I don't have any documentation of what I was involved in as a big city cop, Just first hand witnessing the results. We did not have cameras on everything in the 80's. The wadcutters were factory loads. I was merely trying to share my experience with wadcutters, they suck for defense, move on.

The point was that undocumented anecdotal evidence from someone posting anonymously on the internet does not a convincing argument make. Certainly there are better options than wadcutter all else held equal, but since all else is not always equal wadcutters cannot be completely written off for SD.

[Stumper]

"The point was that undocumented anecdotal evidence from someone posting anonymously on the internet does not a convincing argument make. Certainly there are better options than wadcutter all else held equal, but since all else is not always equal wadcutters cannot be completely written off for SD. "

Especially when no details are given and the reponse comes across as a snippet of arrogance brooking no argument or discussion. Maybe Nanuk has an interesting anecdote to relate but he sounds like a troll unworthy of our attention.

[Nanuk]

Troll?

What detail do you want? At this point anything I could say would be taken out of context. Carry what you want, its your life.

[Edward429451]

Full wadcutters for defense are laughable. the only exception would be one of the hard cast wide meplate bullets. I have seen people shot by target wadcutters and they were generally ****** off that some so and so shot them. Very angry, but not out of the fight.

...us 44 snub wc guys would be another exception. I load the Lyman 148 gr dewc for 38 and the Lyman 18o gr wc for 44 special to ~700-750 and the 44 is noticeably better than the 38 ime.