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Old July 28, 2012, 11:49 PM   #76
Nanuk
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Just carry a Snubby 44 magnum loaded with 2400. If you don't hit them you will catch them on fire.
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Old July 29, 2012, 12:55 AM   #77
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You might want to take a look at the .327 Federal though. Looking at the numbers on it, it would appear that it has the same potential that you are looking for or better and one those is on my prioity list.
Ever seen a FMJ .327 round? Hell, have you ever seen ANY revolver caliber with FMJ bullets?

You are right that the .327 is very similar to the 7.62X25 in terms of bullet diameter and velocity, but if you have to use semi-wadcutters in your .327 you aren't going to penetrate the vest.
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Old July 29, 2012, 01:14 AM   #78
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Zxcv, do you know of a source for the steel jacketed ammo?
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Old July 29, 2012, 01:28 AM   #79
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Here's one place, there are others that may be cheaper:
http://www.jgsales.com/7.62x25-polis...ox-p-3144.html

The stuff I bought was Bulgarian. It shoots good, but the brass splits at the necks (wasn't annealed, and it's 50 years old) so it's not really reloadable even if you can deal with the Berdan primers.
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Old July 29, 2012, 02:05 AM   #80
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I'm fairly sure the of the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway. Are steel core, or AP bullets as components available? If they are is it illegal to manufacture rounds from them? Alternately would it be feasible to design a mold for a 7.62 mm bullet intended to be used in the pistol round that was pointed and cast it in hard lead or copper?
Scrubcedar, here is the legal definition of "armor piercing bullets", outlawed in 1986 -

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C44.txt

(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence
of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
projectile.

----------------------------------------------------

For what you want to do, I would suggest casting trunctated cone bullets from zinc - zinc is not on the list of prohibited materials, zinc's melting temperature is within the range of commercial equipment like LEE Production Pots, and zinc hardness approaches that of brass or sintered iron.

Be advised, zinc's specific gravity is about 2/3 the density of lead - a mold designed for 120 gr. lead bullets will drop zinc bullets weighing ~ 80 gr.
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Old July 29, 2012, 08:59 AM   #81
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Here's a 5.7mm against level IIIa armor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WrokNC3Clc

The civilian rounds are stopped. Later in the video you see the armor piercing round. Unless it has a steel core, I doubt 7.62x25mm would do much better. Maybe against level II, but level IIIa.

It seems like the easiest way to improve penetration would be a subcaliber penetrator like VBR technology. Or maybe a some sort of sabot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKMz3tYx-M
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Old July 30, 2012, 04:44 PM   #82
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41 mag is concealable

I have been routinely carrying a 41 mag revolver on each side, inside the waistband, for nearly a year now. Taurus 415 with 2.5" barrel. Why Taurus? Because the model 415 is in a concealable size, which I could not find in any other 41 mag or 44 mag. It has been a great gun. I know it can be concealed because I have been doing it. Right now it is loaded with 250 grain flat nose bullets. I like to think I could give a guy in body armor a thumping with those. If they did not do the job against a guy like Holmes, then perhaps I could pass it to my wife and have her fire 3 shots after which I tackle him from another angle. He would be looking at a different angle than that from which I would be approaching.
I am starting to reload. What bullet type that I could buy would be best for penetration? I could load one gun with hollow points and the other with whatever type would penetrate well if that is needed. Any ideas?
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Old July 30, 2012, 05:11 PM   #83
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Oops - I should have read the other posts first

It looks like my question on bullet type was answered in the previous posts that I should have read before asking my question. The answer appears to be that there are none that I could buy that would penetrate modern body armor. Now that I am starting to reload, however, I can afford to shoot more and improve my accuracy which would be the biggest help.
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Old July 30, 2012, 06:33 PM   #84
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An AR pistol with green tips. If u could conceal under a vest with a shoulder sling or in a backpack. Some green tips would go right thru.

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Old July 30, 2012, 07:52 PM   #85
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The FN Five-Seven would be my choice. Staggered loads for penetration and expansion.
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Old July 31, 2012, 09:42 AM   #86
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Armor pirecing bullets are defined in federal and most state's laws. Those laws describe a sold bullet made of a hard material or with a heavy jacket. Here in FL, the law is a bit vague and might be interpreted to include M855 green tip too. And any solid bullet made to penetrate could be a serious downrange risk. Like Ayoob said, you don't want to report "a shooting at 1st Ave and Main St. another at 2nd and Main, and at 3rd and Main".

But... Mag Safe makes a load called the "Agent" load that has the typical frangible core of shot and epoxy, but will defeat level II soft armor. No risk of overpenetration, and completely legal.

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Old July 31, 2012, 10:15 AM   #87
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Those laws describe a sold bullet made of a hard material or with a heavy jacket.
The federal definition has a specific list of hard materials. (Kirksite and other zinc alloys are not on that list)
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Old July 31, 2012, 12:18 PM   #88
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I did recently read an old post by John Ross the author of "Unintended Consequences" about how back in 1972 he worked up a load for the .357 Auto Mag that had a muzzle velocity of 2870 FPS with a 90gr bullet from an 8 1/2" barrel. That velocity would likely penetrate anything less than class IV soft body armor.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...39#post1202039

But how would you carry or conceal an auto mag with such a long barrel?
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Old July 31, 2012, 01:05 PM   #89
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I don't say this to rain on anyone's parade.Maybe the Tokarev round and the 5.7 are the best penetrators.I'm not trying to dispute that

I just find it interesting that the 30 carbine has been so often maligned for (true or not) failing to penetrate the winter clothing of enemy troops in Korea.

30 carbine vs the 7.62 x25 rd...

And,I really have not seriously compared the ballistics,but how does the 5.7 in a handgun stack up against a 22 magnum rimfire in a rifle?Not suggesting we will carry a 22 Magnum rifle,I'm just having fun asking questions.Many would sneer at the 22 magnum rifle for self defense against a body armored target

The discussion is good,its good to address the real world challenges.

Analagous to the deer woods,if 90% of your shots will be less than 150 yds,
1/2 of 1% of your shots will be 600 yds or more (in this cartoon),do you really want to gear up with a 13 lb rifle with a 24x scope ,carry it all the time,and splatter your 40 yd deer with a 338 Lapua?

Myself,I would tailor my outfit to the 90 % shot.

To tailor it to the 10% compromises the outfit 90% of the time.

We did not all start packing counter sniper outfits after the Whitman in the tower tragedy.

But,thats just me.I think I'll stick with 45 ACP
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Old July 31, 2012, 08:42 PM   #90
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HiBC - The .30 Carbine is roughly equivalent to shooting a .357 Magnum from an 18" carbine (give or take ~200 fps).

But that reminds me. While everyone is talking about what would hit hardest or possibly penetrate soft armor, I have to wonder what Fiocchi's 142 TMC would do.

Oh ow! That's gonna leave a mark.

At 1250 fps with all of its energy focused on that small meplat, I have to believe that if it doesn't penetrate, it'll sure get the perp's attention.
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Old July 31, 2012, 10:11 PM   #91
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An AR pistol with green tips. If u could conceal under a vest with a shoulder sling or in a backpack. Some green tips would go right thru.
You don't need the green tips. The itty bitty coathanger thickness short steel rod is fairly inconsequential and if you are relying on it for penetration, then like real AP ammo through hard armor, the mostly only the steel penetrates. That is why a .50 BMG AP round doesn't put a full .50 hole through a steel target. You get a hole a bit bigger than .308...which is the size of the steel core inside the .50. That is based on a couple folks shooting one of my MGM targets with AP ammo by 'accident.'

A regular 55 gr fmj will go through just fine.
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Old August 1, 2012, 12:46 AM   #92
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HiBC, I agree wholeheartedly with your premise as things sit now, but we've already seen an attempted copycat.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/27...senal-weapons/
Thank heavens he was caught, and no, no body armor involved that we know of yet.
The premise is if this becomes more common what would be the best defense?
I profoundly hope I'm wrong but the increased availability of body armor along with decreased cost would seem to make this problem increasingly likely to happen.
The 5.7 and 7.62x25 rounds don't seem to be up to the task for good armor but may offer some chance. Training to switch to head shots at a certain point may hold more promise, but that's not saying much.
For about $200 I can get a tokarev pistol, and enough ammo to become skilled with it won't break the bank. If I have to shoot at an opponent behind cover it's penetration might be the difference between which of us gets to use a pine box. My ability to cheaply practice with my carry weapon is likely to make even more difference.Under those circumstances it makes sense for me.
The hard thing to think of is this, since the country's founding the RKBA has at least given the average joe the ability to cause significant damage to those who would attack him. These body armor suits change that. Specialized rounds or extreme skill seem to be the only good answer, and most of us have access to neither of those.
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Old August 1, 2012, 01:34 AM   #93
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as stated, some rounds can beat soft armor from the fiveseven.

at the 4:50 mark of this vid a s4m round from elite ammo penetrates a level 3a vest and 11" of gel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn-b1p7xKu8
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Old August 1, 2012, 08:19 AM   #94
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scrubcedar:No arguement from me.Follow your own path.

The good news is,for nearly all of us,it is a moot point.

It is a bit like wondering"What is the best golf club?"

A buddy has a Tokarev,I have shot it.It is a serious handgun,interesting locking system.

Please understand,I was not running down your choice.I believe the most sure stop is a central nervous system hit.That is not necessarily a head shot.
The spine is generally center of mass.I have had large game drop in its tracks when I shot high,and just nicked a rib dorsal bone that would be the withers on a horse.The shock transmitted to the spine through the bone.

The abdominal aorta and vena cava run along the spine.Hit one of those,blood pressure will drop fast.

I really do not know anything about the 5.7.I have not had any real interest.I heard someone in passing compare its ballistics to the 22 rimfire magnum.I do not know.

Not taking anything away from the 7.63x25,or is it 7.62? What is it? an 85 gr 30 cal fmj at 1400 or so?

I just find it interesting that in another thread with another context the 30 carbine round,a 30 cal 110 gr fmj isa about 2000 fps.

The legend,which may not be accurate,the carbine had trouble penetrating the winter clothing of enemy troops in Korea.Maybe silk tech had some effect!

Thread to thread,one day the 5.56 is a totally inadequate pipsqueak round,then the 5.7 is THE body armor penetrator.

If you are in a situation where you need a gun,a gun that functions,that you can hit with,will probably work fine.
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Old August 1, 2012, 08:24 AM   #95
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HiBC, I agree wholeheartedly with your premise as things sit now, but we've already seen an attempted copycat.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/27...senal-weapons/
Thank heavens he was caught, and no, no body armor involved that we know of yet.
NOT a copycat. The only thing remotely similar is that he called himself "the Joker." He wasn't at a theater. He didn't shoot anyone. He didn't have body armor, bombs, or incendiary devices.

He threatened to shoot people at work. Holmes didn't make such a threat.

He had 20 guns and 400 rounds of ammo - at home. That is an average of 20 rounds per gun. Wow. He didn't have any recent large amounts of ammo purchases. Apparently, he doesn't even read gun forums to know he needs about 1000 rounds of each caliber.

No, this guy was not a copycat. He was a disgruntled employee (Holmes didn't work at the theater) who made a stupid threat and played off the incident to gain credibility, nothing more.

Unlike Holmes where it seems still in doubt, this guy really may be emotionally disturbed.

Quote:
as stated, some rounds can beat soft armor from the fiveseven.

at the 4:50 mark of this vid a s4m round from elite ammo penetrates a level 3a vest and 11" of gel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn-b1p7xKu8
Not currently available, but not restricted ammo either. High speed spire pointed ammo penetrating soft armor should be no surprise.
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Old August 1, 2012, 11:18 AM   #96
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S4m is not currently in Production, but the next generation improved design, the T6, is available. Other rounds from elite also claim to beat level II armor, but I haven't seen an independent video.
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Old August 1, 2012, 03:50 PM   #97
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The hard thing to think of is this, since the country's founding the RKBA has at least given the average joe the ability to cause significant damage to those who would attack him. These body armor suits change that. Specialized rounds or extreme skill seem to be the only good answer, and most of us have access to neither of those.
Agreed.

If you haven't done so, surf over to Amazon and check out Level IIIa and Level IV armor w/ceramic inserts for sale.

I've been tracking this trend for a few years now. This issue isn't going away and although more advance bullet designs exist, they certainly will not be made available to civilians. Body armor is only going to get more effective and less expensive, even now, a good level IIIa vest isn't much more than a Glock.

I'd like to see body armor become an NFA item, just like machine guns, descrtutive devices, short barreled rifles, suppressors, etc. Tax stamp, LEO sign off, fingerprints, and a very involved background check for each plate and vest.

I went through the process myself, frustrating, but doable and probably not something a would-be-criminal, even with a clean record would attempt.

Last edited by testuser; August 1, 2012 at 03:59 PM.
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Old August 1, 2012, 04:02 PM   #98
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So let me get this straight.

You want body armor to become an NFA item, even though there is no possible way that body armor can hurt someone.

Why?
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Old August 1, 2012, 04:20 PM   #99
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I'd like to see body armor become an NFA item, just like machine guns, descrtutive devices, short barreled rifles, suppressors, etc. Tax stamp, LEO sign off, fingerprints, and a very involved background check for each plate and vest.
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Old August 1, 2012, 04:46 PM   #100
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So let me get this straight.

You want body armor to become an NFA item, even though there is no possible way that body armor can hurt someone.
Suppressors can't hurt anyone, either. They have to be paired with a weapon to do that.

Quote:
Why?
It tips the balance away from lawful CCW holders who only have a pistol at their disposal to neutralize a threat.

I'd like it to remain legal to own, because I wouldn't want to deprive someone if that's what they want. On the other hand, when paired with a weapon and taken into a public space, where no one else is likely to have it, that's an issue for me. I'm trying to balance the two without advocating an outright ban.

How many CCW owners that have armor will be wearing it in July in public, unless they're LEO?

Last edited by testuser; August 1, 2012 at 05:03 PM.
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