Navy Pepperbox at EMF

hongrn · July 2, 2011, 03:06 PM

Just saw this on the EMF site. Interesting BP gun. Anybody know if it's historical?

http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/...6-310p1401.htm

Hawg · July 2, 2011, 04:07 PM

Nope it's not.

MJN77 · July 2, 2011, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Anybody know if it's historical?

Not even close. Looks like it would be "odd" to shoot.

Doc Hoy · July 2, 2011, 04:45 PM

....You get all of the velocity of a four to five inch barrel (I am estimating of course) coupled with the lack of accuracy of the absense of sights (so you are just pointing the thing), no way to load it in the field, and far more muzzle heavy than an 1851. I guess at ten feet, it does not matter that there is no rifling.

Of course you could load it with about 200 grains of 777. There certainly is room for it.

I think Luigi is trying to figure out ways to get people to buy more stuff. It would have been nice, had he finished the project. (Note the pins remaining in the frame where the barrel SHOULD be.)

Call me cynical but I think I will save my 300 dollars for the advent of an 1860 Colt for .410 shot shells.

arcticap · July 2, 2011, 05:15 PM

It's probably has smooth bores which will also hurt accuracy.
An interesting piece for viewing & discussion though.
Thanks for sharing!

Hawg · July 2, 2011, 05:36 PM

Being a smooth bore wont hurt accuracy. The lack of sights now is another matter.

Newton24b · July 2, 2011, 05:41 PM

its not a true pepperbox for starters. just look at period pepper boxes and well, youll see what i mean.

issue is, if you look at the frame very closely, the frame has the 1860 rebate cut in it.

as far as sights go, it wold be EASY to modify a front sight. all youd do is modify that front screw in one of several fun ways. tada, front sight.

Hawg · July 2, 2011, 06:01 PM

I don't see a rebate in the frame. Looks like a 51 Navy frame to me.

mykeal · July 2, 2011, 06:16 PM

Yes, it most certainly is hysterical.

Oh, excuse me - you said historical. My mistake.

Hawg · July 2, 2011, 07:13 PM

Careful you don't let that sense of humor get away from you Mykeal.

hongrn · July 2, 2011, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Yes, it most certainly is hysterical.

Oh, excuse me - you said historical. My mistake.

You've got to come up with better jokes than that. That's pretty lame.

Andy Griffith · July 3, 2011, 07:47 AM

I do believe there is a lot more room for non-historical innovation in the black powder market- but I think they missed the mark on that one.

A 12 gauge version of the "howdah" would be perfect.

The same thing in a four barreled 12ga swivel version too would be on my wish list.

Hawg · July 3, 2011, 08:21 AM

I guess it's just me but I don't see why anybody would want something that never was.

junebug_01 · July 3, 2011, 09:18 AM

That design is not only historically incorrect, it is a mechanical horror as well. There is way too much weight hanging on just one end of the arbor which is screwed into the frame. It's a sure bet it is going to loosen the arbor in a hurry. With a normal barrel, the arbor is supported on both ends.

bedbugbilly · July 3, 2011, 06:07 PM

Geeeze . . . if they only had it in a brass frame. . .

Interesting to say the least . . . take a look though . . . I see the the "locating pins" for the barrel on the front of the frame . . what gives with that? If they are going to make a Rube Goldberg . . seems like they would take the time to remove them . . . after all . . why would you need them?

Unless my eyes are seeing things? Maybe I'm just getting old?

I'm thinking we all ought to chip in and buy Doc Hoy one of these things . . . it would look good displayed with all of his nice pistols and with his new shooting location, he could try it out and let us know his thoughts on how it shoots? How about it Doc?

Doc Hoy · July 3, 2011, 06:55 PM

I am thinking I could cram about two or three hundred grains of powder in the chamber. I would have to redesign my loading press. I would not put grease over the bullets in the hopes that I could get at least two of the chambers to chain fire so it would act like an actual pepperbox.

On a serious note, I tend to agree with Hawg, although I can see the value in brass frame issues of the 1851, 60 and Remington even though they may not have a historical prototype.

I know there are those among you who like the twelve inch barrel 1851 pattern, "Ballister", and I mean no offense but the proliferation of long barreled brass revolvers bugs me. I had a Ballister and did not like it in the least, although I am well aware that there are nice long barrel versions in steel that I would not mind having.

This most recent release is, to me, completely ridiculous. I stand by my post of yesterday at 5:45 as long as you accept that I was kidding about a .410 Colt.

krazykat · July 3, 2011, 08:00 PM

looks like a hair dryer on steroids

MJN77 · July 3, 2011, 08:23 PM

Quote:

looks like a hair dryer on steroids

HA! That would be messy.

arcticap · July 3, 2011, 10:06 PM

Many may think that it's ugly and not worth purchasing. But if it's a special run with limited availability, then down the road these will either go up in value or other folks will wish they had bought one had they known that it was available.
There's a demand for pepperboxes. Even though this isn't a conventional one it's still a functional and deadly hybrid BP weapon.
Folks are sometimes enamored by unique weapons that don't cost a fortune and it may fill a niche.
Any new design is going to either be liked or disliked but if the gun functions well then that's a plus.
I can see giving the designers some credit for being innovative.
Some designs do tend to grow on people over time so today's ugly duckling could be tomorrow's classic.
And if it's more of a challenge to fire it accurately without sights and/or rifling then maybe some folks would like that feature about it.
Who wouldn't want to at least have a try at firing one just for the fun of it.

junebug_01 · July 4, 2011, 06:19 AM

So arcticap,

When you get yours, be sure to give us a range report!

Doc Hoy · July 4, 2011, 07:55 AM

.....Increasing value because, essentially, of rarity. I know that in conversations with BPREVOLVER, he anticipates some upward creep of values of existing specimens of revolvers that have some history. We have already seen Lyman revolvers increase in value, as have the Belgian Colts.

My thought on this particular "revolver?" is that at three hundred bucks, few will be sold.

My humble opinion is that as a firearm it has precious few redeaming factors. I am out on a limb here because I have never handled one, but I stand by my post of 5:45 the other day.

bedbugbilly · July 4, 2011, 08:03 AM

+1 Doc - hope you know I was talking with tongue in cheek!

I suppose, as articap points out, there is some "collector" aspect to it, but, at $300, if I had it to burn, I'd be purchasing a decent "modern" collector Colt like a Official Police, Army Special, etc. (they can still be found in that price range) and tucking that away as they will appreciate more in value - or use the money to buy a different C & B revolver that I had on my "wish list". I'm not knocking articap's outlook on it as that's not my intention - different folks collect different things that interest them and this is certainly an "oddity". It would certainly be interesting to know the thoughts of the fellow that came up with this one. My next "tongue in cheek" question would be to ask if they or someone were going to make "conversion cylinders" for it?

That said, the "true pepperbox" is a historical firearm that holds a niche in the evolution of the handgun. There have been some feeble attempts to make copies - I think it is just too bad that someone doesn't make a reproduction of one that is accurate. I don't know as if I'd have a true interest in owning one and shooting it - I would think the novelty would wear off after a while - but I think there is a market for one if it was a decent copy.

articap - if by chance you do get one of these - please let us know what you think about it - and if you shoot it - how it did. Who knows, if you get one, maybe years down the road you can tell us all . . . "see, I told you so". It wouldn't be the first time I've had to "eat crow"!

I'm glad this got posted as it is interesting and a "little out of the ordinary". Have a good 4th of July everyone!

arcticap · July 4, 2011, 01:27 PM

No, for me this gun is just an interesting topic for discussion. I don't want to buy one for $300 without having collected on a winning lottery ticket first.

In the photo, I did notice that the the hammer spur notch seems to be pretty deep. Maybe that allows for aiming by using the raised ribs that run along the outside of the pepperbox cylinder.
And the fact that the cylinder has rear nipples in line with the hammer which are struck like a conventional C&B revolver is a big improvement over a traditional pepperbox design where the nipples are located on the side of each chamber with the top mounted hammer blocking one's ability to aim.
Yes, the main sticking point with this gun seems to be the price.
If not $300, then what do folks think would be a fair price for this new 1851 pepperbox mongrel?
Would anyone here be willing to buy one for $225 or $250?

Yes, the sales of this type of specialty gun is dependent on the price. Everyone would like to shoot one but who really wants to pay the high price?

Doc Hoy · July 4, 2011, 02:09 PM

....much the same as I would view this thing. It was IMO an oddity. The only reason that I was interested in the pistol is that it was cheap. I paid the same for it as I was paying for brass frame 1851s at that time (mid 1970s). Cabela,s frequently puts their Pietta brass frame revolvers on sale for around 170.00. (I bought a G&G for 155.00 and free shipping.) I would not give more than that for this piece.

And if I was in the mood to spend 170.00 for this thing, I would add 50.00 to it and buy another 1860, or 1858.

I just don't want one.

bprevolver · July 4, 2011, 09:49 PM

EMF is a classic company that has introduced several "odd" revolver combinations. This is the weirdest of all. It appears to be on an unaltered 1851 Navy frame with the cylinder arbor acting as the screw that holds the cylinder on ther frame. The barrel pins on the front of the frame have not even been removed. This is just weird and has no historical value.

EMF is one of the companies that imported the 1851 3rd Model Dragoon with an 18" barrel. It came with a shoulder stock with steel hardware and a holster. The shoulder stocks alone now are selling for more than $600. These were made by Armi San Marco. RPRCA has three of these in its collection and is going to sell one.

Another special edition type revolver by EMF was an 1851 Navy in .44cal. with a 12", 7 1/2", and 5" barrels each serial numbered to the same frame. Each barrel was also fitted with it's own loading lever assembly. Extremely rare.

***Went to EMF and this pepper box is an 1851 Navy that comes with the extra pepper box cylinder. That puts it into a different catagory, another "weird" EMF creation. I may just have to get one of these.***

July 2, 2011, 03:06 PM	#1
hongrn Member Join Date: March 30, 2011 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 91	Navy Pepperbox at EMF Just saw this on the EMF site. Interesting BP gun. Anybody know if it's historical? http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/...6-310p1401.htm __________________ I love the smell of soot in the morning...

July 2, 2011, 04:45 PM	#4
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Let me see if I have this right ....You get all of the velocity of a four to five inch barrel (I am estimating of course) coupled with the lack of accuracy of the absense of sights (so you are just pointing the thing), no way to load it in the field, and far more muzzle heavy than an 1851. I guess at ten feet, it does not matter that there is no rifling. Of course you could load it with about 200 grains of 777. There certainly is room for it. I think Luigi is trying to figure out ways to get people to buy more stuff. It would have been nice, had he finished the project. (Note the pins remaining in the frame where the barrel SHOULD be.) Call me cynical but I think I will save my 300 dollars for the advent of an 1860 Colt for .410 shot shells. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; July 2, 2011 at 04:52 PM.

July 3, 2011, 07:47 AM	#12
Andy Griffith Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Location: Macon Co. NC Posts: 591	I do believe there is a lot more room for non-historical innovation in the black powder market- but I think they missed the mark on that one. A 12 gauge version of the "howdah" would be perfect. The same thing in a four barreled 12ga swivel version too would be on my wish list. __________________ Barney Fife: "Nip it, nip it, nip it!" Andy Griffith:"Oh now Barn'...."

July 3, 2011, 06:07 PM	#15
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Geeeze . . . if they only had it in a brass frame. . . Interesting to say the least . . . take a look though . . . I see the the "locating pins" for the barrel on the front of the frame . . what gives with that? If they are going to make a Rube Goldberg . . seems like they would take the time to remove them . . . after all . . why would you need them? Unless my eyes are seeing things? Maybe I'm just getting old? I'm thinking we all ought to chip in and buy Doc Hoy one of these things . . . it would look good displayed with all of his nice pistols and with his new shooting location, he could try it out and let us know his thoughts on how it shoots? How about it Doc? __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

July 3, 2011, 06:55 PM	#16
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Absolutely I am thinking I could cram about two or three hundred grains of powder in the chamber. I would have to redesign my loading press. I would not put grease over the bullets in the hopes that I could get at least two of the chambers to chain fire so it would act like an actual pepperbox. On a serious note, I tend to agree with Hawg, although I can see the value in brass frame issues of the 1851, 60 and Remington even though they may not have a historical prototype. I know there are those among you who like the twelve inch barrel 1851 pattern, "Ballister", and I mean no offense but the proliferation of long barreled brass revolvers bugs me. I had a Ballister and did not like it in the least, although I am well aware that there are nice long barrel versions in steel that I would not mind having. This most recent release is, to me, completely ridiculous. I stand by my post of yesterday at 5:45 as long as you accept that I was kidding about a .410 Colt. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 2, 2011, 04:07 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Nope it's not.

July 2, 2011, 05:15 PM	#5
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	It's probably has smooth bores which will also hurt accuracy. An interesting piece for viewing & discussion though. Thanks for sharing!

July 2, 2011, 05:36 PM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Being a smooth bore wont hurt accuracy. The lack of sights now is another matter.

July 2, 2011, 05:41 PM	#7
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	its not a true pepperbox for starters. just look at period pepper boxes and well, youll see what i mean. issue is, if you look at the frame very closely, the frame has the 1860 rebate cut in it. as far as sights go, it wold be EASY to modify a front sight. all youd do is modify that front screw in one of several fun ways. tada, front sight.

July 2, 2011, 06:01 PM	#8
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I don't see a rebate in the frame. Looks like a 51 Navy frame to me.

July 2, 2011, 06:16 PM	#9
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Yes, it most certainly is hysterical. Oh, excuse me - you said historical. My mistake.

July 2, 2011, 07:13 PM	#10
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Careful you don't let that sense of humor get away from you Mykeal.

July 3, 2011, 08:21 AM	#13
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I guess it's just me but I don't see why anybody would want something that never was.

July 3, 2011, 09:18 AM	#14
junebug_01 Junior member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 37	That design is not only historically incorrect, it is a mechanical horror as well. There is way too much weight hanging on just one end of the arbor which is screwed into the frame. It's a sure bet it is going to loosen the arbor in a hurry. With a normal barrel, the arbor is supported on both ends.

July 3, 2011, 08:00 PM	#17
krazykat Member Join Date: June 24, 2011 Location: central florida Posts: 44	looks like a hair dryer on steroids

July 3, 2011, 10:06 PM	#19
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Many may think that it's ugly and not worth purchasing. But if it's a special run with limited availability, then down the road these will either go up in value or other folks will wish they had bought one had they known that it was available. There's a demand for pepperboxes. Even though this isn't a conventional one it's still a functional and deadly hybrid BP weapon. Folks are sometimes enamored by unique weapons that don't cost a fortune and it may fill a niche. Any new design is going to either be liked or disliked but if the gun functions well then that's a plus. I can see giving the designers some credit for being innovative. Some designs do tend to grow on people over time so today's ugly duckling could be tomorrow's classic. And if it's more of a challenge to fire it accurately without sights and/or rifling then maybe some folks would like that feature about it. Who wouldn't want to at least have a try at firing one just for the fun of it. Last edited by arcticap; July 4, 2011 at 12:36 PM.

July 4, 2011, 06:19 AM	#20
junebug_01 Junior member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 37	So arcticap, When you get yours, be sure to give us a range report!

July 4, 2011, 07:55 AM	#21
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I agree with what the Cap says about..... .....Increasing value because, essentially, of rarity. I know that in conversations with BPREVOLVER, he anticipates some upward creep of values of existing specimens of revolvers that have some history. We have already seen Lyman revolvers increase in value, as have the Belgian Colts. My thought on this particular "revolver?" is that at three hundred bucks, few will be sold. My humble opinion is that as a firearm it has precious few redeaming factors. I am out on a limb here because I have never handled one, but I stand by my post of 5:45 the other day. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 4, 2011, 08:03 AM	#22
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	+1 Doc - hope you know I was talking with tongue in cheek! I suppose, as articap points out, there is some "collector" aspect to it, but, at $300, if I had it to burn, I'd be purchasing a decent "modern" collector Colt like a Official Police, Army Special, etc. (they can still be found in that price range) and tucking that away as they will appreciate more in value - or use the money to buy a different C & B revolver that I had on my "wish list". I'm not knocking articap's outlook on it as that's not my intention - different folks collect different things that interest them and this is certainly an "oddity". It would certainly be interesting to know the thoughts of the fellow that came up with this one. My next "tongue in cheek" question would be to ask if they or someone were going to make "conversion cylinders" for it? That said, the "true pepperbox" is a historical firearm that holds a niche in the evolution of the handgun. There have been some feeble attempts to make copies - I think it is just too bad that someone doesn't make a reproduction of one that is accurate. I don't know as if I'd have a true interest in owning one and shooting it - I would think the novelty would wear off after a while - but I think there is a market for one if it was a decent copy. articap - if by chance you do get one of these - please let us know what you think about it - and if you shoot it - how it did. Who knows, if you get one, maybe years down the road you can tell us all . . . "see, I told you so". It wouldn't be the first time I've had to "eat crow"! I'm glad this got posted as it is interesting and a "little out of the ordinary". Have a good 4th of July everyone! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

July 4, 2011, 01:27 PM	#23
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	No, for me this gun is just an interesting topic for discussion. I don't want to buy one for $300 without having collected on a winning lottery ticket first. In the photo, I did notice that the the hammer spur notch seems to be pretty deep. Maybe that allows for aiming by using the raised ribs that run along the outside of the pepperbox cylinder. And the fact that the cylinder has rear nipples in line with the hammer which are struck like a conventional C&B revolver is a big improvement over a traditional pepperbox design where the nipples are located on the side of each chamber with the top mounted hammer blocking one's ability to aim. Yes, the main sticking point with this gun seems to be the price. If not $300, then what do folks think would be a fair price for this new 1851 pepperbox mongrel? Would anyone here be willing to buy one for $225 or $250? Yes, the sales of this type of specialty gun is dependent on the price. Everyone would like to shoot one but who really wants to pay the high price? Last edited by arcticap; July 5, 2011 at 12:10 AM.

July 4, 2011, 02:09 PM	#24
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I viewed the purchase of that Ballister.... ....much the same as I would view this thing. It was IMO an oddity. The only reason that I was interested in the pistol is that it was cheap. I paid the same for it as I was paying for brass frame 1851s at that time (mid 1970s). Cabela,s frequently puts their Pietta brass frame revolvers on sale for around 170.00. (I bought a G&G for 155.00 and free shipping.) I would not give more than that for this piece. And if I was in the mood to spend 170.00 for this thing, I would add 50.00 to it and buy another 1860, or 1858. I just don't want one. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 4, 2011, 09:49 PM	#25
bprevolver Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 141	Weird revolvers EMF is a classic company that has introduced several "odd" revolver combinations. This is the weirdest of all. It appears to be on an unaltered 1851 Navy frame with the cylinder arbor acting as the screw that holds the cylinder on ther frame. The barrel pins on the front of the frame have not even been removed. This is just weird and has no historical value. EMF is one of the companies that imported the 1851 3rd Model Dragoon with an 18" barrel. It came with a shoulder stock with steel hardware and a holster. The shoulder stocks alone now are selling for more than $600. These were made by Armi San Marco. RPRCA has three of these in its collection and is going to sell one. Another special edition type revolver by EMF was an 1851 Navy in .44cal. with a 12", 7 1/2", and 5" barrels each serial numbered to the same frame. Each barrel was also fitted with it's own loading lever assembly. Extremely rare. *Went to EMF and this pepper box is an 1851 Navy that comes with the extra pepper box cylinder. That puts it into a different catagory, another "weird" EMF creation. I may just have to get one of these.* Last edited by bprevolver; July 7, 2011 at 12:24 PM.