Home Defense Carbine Caliber?

[RevolverOcelot]

I've decided to finally make a change and have a carbine ready for home defense as well as a handgun. (I don't do well with shotguns with my shoulder, and prefer more capacity)

Really it's between 5.56 in a Mini 14, and 7.62x39 in either my Mini Thirty, SKS-M or Arsenal SLR107FR.

Based on my research, the 5.56 load would be the Speer 64 grain JSP, and the 7.62x39 load would be the Hornady SST.

My dilemma lies in this: I'm not sure if I trust the 5.56's (even with what I've determined to be the best load) ability to stop an attacker as quickly as the SST 7.62x39, but I'm also concerned about overpenetration with the SST 7.62x39. While Hornady states penetration in gel to be within the 12-18 inch FBI acceptability range, I've seen tests performed that show it penetrating well over 20" (like in the link below by Mrgunsngear, maybe he'll show up here). I live in a suburban home. I'm not concerned about the Speer JSP overpenetrating, as it seems to penetrate no more than a good JHP handgun round, but I have doubts about the 5.56. It's generally considered not powerful enough for reliably taking down a 110lbs whitetail, even with good loads. Why is it considered enough for an average-sized human?

Any insight would be appreciated.


7.62x39 SST test my Mrgunsngear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF89dysghUs

[olddav]

You can't compare a hunting environment with home defense environment. A hunting environment consist of ranges of 100 to 300 yard or more while in the home defense environment you see distances of 30 feet. I am quite certain that any fire arm chamber in 5.56 will provide adequate protection at such a short distance.

[Art Eatman]

At defense distances, it doesn't matter which of your caliber choices you use. For all practical purposes, they're equal. The deal is to use the firearm with which you are most familiar and most accurate.

[cslinger]

People stop attacks all the time with a 9x19mm out of 4inch or less pistols. A 5.56 rifle at contact range should be fairly "adequate" me thinks. The additional 10-30 rounds on tap that are very easy to shoot probably add a bit to the adequacy.

The point is I don't think I would worry about being able to stop a threat with a .223 semi auto at close range. If anything I would be more worried about what the noise and blast would do to me.

[RevolverOcelot]

Thanks for the replies. I didn't mean to suggest that I'm worried about range. A home defense situation would be very close range. My concern is that the 5.56 might not stop the attacker as well as the x39. I know we've all heard of the problems the 5.56 was having in the Middle East. I know many of the cases were at longer ranges, and the M855 is nothing like the load I'm considering, but it still makes me uneasy. A very close friend actually dealt with it first hand in Iraq in 2004, where he said even at close range it would take several shots before the bad guy went down. He was eventually issued an M14 with iron sights and in his experience it was always a one shot affair. I understand that the M14 is much more powerful than the x39, but I don't think swinging around an M14 in the house would be a good idea

[Bake]

It's not what you hit with, but where you hit with it...

[skizzums]

i have no facts to back this up. but the .223 seems to be percingly loud compared to x39. i am sure they are probably close to equal in decibals, but the high pitched scream of the 22cal hurts outdoors, i could only imagine inside. the x39 seems to be a lower boom and not as painful. i have shot both without earpro, by accident. just maybe something to consider. but if overpenetration is your main concern, i would go with a lightweight .223 in some kind of tipped round.

[Sharkbite]

The 556/223 round is dependent on 2 things for effectiveness

1..VELOCITY. The origional design for the M16 was a 20" barrel and a 55gn bullet. The shorter barrels used now cut into the velocity. Add in the use of heavier (62gn) FMJ and the military is experiencing less then optimum effect on soft targets


2.. BULLET DESIGN. In a HD situation a lightly constructed varmit type bullet, designed to fragment rapidly will SIGNIFICANTLY improve terminal performance.

A number of LE SWAT teams have been using shorter barreled M4's with Hornady TAP ammo. GREAT results with this ammo.

Dont discount the 556 as a people stopper. With the proper ammo it is devastating.

As to the 556 vs X39 debate...either one will do the job. Pick the one you are most comfortable with. My preference would be the 556 in a shorter AR platform. But that is based on personal familiarity with that rifle

[Bake]

Way back when, had a friend that was a surgeon in Vietnam. Now he says he didn't keep really good records, but he says there's not a dimes worth of difference between the M-1 carbine (30 cal.), M-16 (5.56mm), AK (7x39mm), or the M-14 (7.62mm NATO) rounds. He says all bullets make a hole going in and make a hole coming out, and leave a big mess in between.

[Grant D]

Let's see, I have a Ruger Mini 30 in my safe next to a 7.62x39 AK-47.

I also have a Hi-point 9mm carbine leaning against the wall in my bedroom. It's short, and accurate enough for home defense.

It also has two extra magazines clipped to the stock, so that's 30 rounds total at hand.

[T. O'Heir]

Unless you're way out in the Boonies, no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD. Far too much penetration with any bullet. No cartridge, rifle or hand gun, will stop anything or anybody with 100% reliability either.
In a suburban home(that is notin the Middle East or Iran), you risk sending a bullet way down the street and/or through your neighbour's house walls(assuming wood construction. An SP or SST out of a 7.62 x 39 will very likely penetrate typical brick walls too.). You are responsible for where every shot you take ends up. And it doesn't take much stress to be less than precisely accurate with inaccurate firearms. Take a shot at olddav's 30 feet(10 yards), at somebody who you are not 100% sure has a firearm pointed at you ready to fire and you get charged.
None of those rifles are accurate enough anyway.

[mavracer]

no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD. Far too much penetration with any bullet.

Most 5.56 penatrates less sheet rock than typical SD handgun rounds.

[Dragline45]

My dilemma lies in this: I'm not sure if I trust the 5.56's (even with what I've determined to be the best load) ability to stop an attacker as quickly as the SST 7.62x39

It seems to do pretty well for our armed forces, and based on what I have seen for the 7.62x39, I would take the 5.56 any day over it.

It's generally considered not powerful enough for reliably taking down a 110lbs whitetail, even with good loads. Why is it considered enough for an average-sized human?

Because deer are alot tougher than humans are. Most people cant take a .308 or .30-06 round in the heart or lungs and run for over 100 yards.

no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD

Light HP or SP 5.56 are probably the most suitable cartridge for HD, regardless of it's a pistol, rifle, or shotgun load. The high velocity and light weight of certain 5.56 loads will cause them to break apart in building materials and penetrate less than 9mm or 00 buck. This is why you are seeing a trend in LE, especially SWAT, switching from 9mm SMG's to 5.56 SBR's. Even without using specialty 5.56 loads, they will still tend to penetrate less than even 9mm.

[DanTSX]

The 5.56 ...use law enforcement ammo for urban situations that limit penetration. I use 75 gr hornady tap.


You have 30 rounds on board. If you cannot stop an attacker on the first shot, give him lead until he stops.


You're not hunting deer or trying to attack a machine gun nest on Omaha beach. You'll have complete domination once lead starts flying. Just keep pulling the trigger.

[Dfariswheel]

As usual, the answer is to ask the real experts what they use.
The experts are not your local cop or a shooting school operator.

Today, the real experts are military special ops people who've been shooting A LOT of people at close range since 9-11.
That would be mostly the Navy SEALs, simply because they can use pretty well whatever they want and aren't restricted to the 5.56 like other military units are.

What they want is the 5.56. probably loaded with a commercial type soft point hunting bullet load similar to the above mentioned Hornady TAP load.
In the last one or two issues of the American Rifleman was an article about a legendary Army Special Forces Sargent who discussed the best options for home defense.
His highly informed choice is the 5.56 in an AR-15, with the mags loaded with the full 30 rounds.

[RevolverOcelot]

Actually, that's another problem :/

If I choose 5.56, I believe I will switch from the Mini-14. It's not even more accurate than my AK's, and I'd prefer a pistol grip, cheaper and more reliable magazines, and at least as or more reliable. I want to like the AR15 but am concerned about it's reliability. Even the piston guns are more complicated. I suppose the AR is the gold standard in American carbines today, but is there a more robust, reliable option with plenty of market support?

[Dragline45]

Today, the real experts are military special ops people who've been shooting A LOT of people at close range since 9-11.
That would be mostly the Navy SEALs, simply because they can use pretty well whatever they want and aren't restricted to the 5.56 like other military units are.

Spot on. Here is a look at former Green Beret JD Potynsky's rifle he used during his tours. He could have used any rifle he wanted, in any configuration, yet he still chose to stick with a 5.56 SBR in an AR platform.

[Bongo Boy]

For me it's 10mm Auto with a 16" barrel. Mostly, I rely on having more outdoor lighting, more cameras and more dogs than my neighbors do--and the hope that intruders are sharp enough to recognize that fact. One just never knows.

[kraigwy]

My concern is that the 5.56 might not stop the attacker as well as the x39

Having seen several people shot with both in SE Asia, I find that statement not to be true.

But, there is no such thing as a guarantee DRT. I don't know if you are a hunter or seen hunting shows, but I've seen many deer hit good in the heart/lung area and run several hundred yards before dropping with 270, '06 and so forth.

Then again I've seen critters drop in there tracks. Its a given, you never know what a shot critter, two or four legged is gonna do when shot.

You want to stop some one, gut shoot them. Might not kill them, but chances are it will stop or slow them down.

All of use have been hit in the stomach at one time or other. Think back on your actions with you were hit in the gut. Chances are you drop what ever you have and double over.

Having said all that any rifle will do (though you don't know what it will do). I'm a rifle shooter, but I see no reason to use anything but my J-frame 38 in the house. The thing is, its always in my pocket, available. My long guns are in the gun save. I don't leave any out, first they are too slow to get to, and 2nd. most important, I don't know the kids my grandkids bring out to grandpa's house. I do know they wont pick my pocket, and I know they cant get into the safe.

[dirtd0g]

The benefits to a rifle or shouldered fired weapon is that they tend to be easier to shoot especially under stress. I don't know if I would push 5.56 through a Mini-14 and I definitely wouldn't grab my SKS right off the bat in response to an intruder in my house; they are both too long to maneuver around my hallways effectively.

If you want capacity, accuracy, and the compactness needed for extreme close quarters combat with a rifle you're going to be better served by a nice little M4-build and may even want to consider a pistol-caliber carbine.

[Snyper]

T. O'Heir:
An SP or SST out of a 7.62 x 39 will very likely penetrate typical brick walls too.).

None of those rifles are accurate enough anyway.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Unless you're way out in the Boonies, no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD. Far too much penetration with any bullet.

You keep posting this nonsense in every thread that mentions using a .223 for home defense, I must have seen you post this at least five or six times now. Each time we point out that you're wrong and why, and yet you keep posting this again and again.

After all evidence that we've provided showing that -- with proper defensive ammo -- a .223 will penetrate walls LESS than any defensive pistol or shotgun load, do you still think we're somehow wrong? Do you have any evidence to show that all the tests we've linked so far are flawed and that the FBI and law enforcement agencies around the country are misguided in their choice of .223 rifles? Please, tell us why you think we're wrong.

[jmr40]

I'd be 223 for me. No difference in performance, less recoil, cheaper and because it is far less likely to over penetrate than most any round.

[Art Eatman]

RevolverOcelot, if you prefer the ergonomics of the AR and its pistol-grip, fine. But at defense distances, accuracy is not an issue. The Mini will hold "minute of cranium" quite well.

[RevolverOcelot]

RevolverOcelot, if you prefer the ergonomics of the AR and its pistol-grip, fine. But at defense distances, accuracy is not an issue. The Mini will hold "minute of cranium" quite well.

Not worried about accuracy in home defense, but I feel like I could "upgrade" to another 5.56 rifle eventually if I go with that caliber, but I'm not really an AR fan. The only AR-related rifle I would consider is the HK MR556. I'm not satisfied with the AR15's reliability history.