.308 110-grain V-max...counterintuitive bullet seating depth?

TFL4L · November 13, 2008, 01:59 PM

Someone had mentioned the 110-grain V-max seated to 2.700" OAL with very impressive accuracy. (BTW, Hornady lists a 2.740" min OAL)

I understand that the 110 V-max is a short bullet, and therefore can't be set too long in order to still have sufficient depth of bullet properly seated in the case. However, general wisdom goes with .02-.04" off the lands. However, with a 2.700" OAL, there is a whopping .10"+ jump to the lands...yet some get great accuracy.

What gives?

TFL4L · November 19, 2008, 06:48 PM

I know there are a lot of experienced loaders here--any thought?

Loader9 · November 19, 2008, 11:50 PM

COL is the key to making a gun shoot. Some like the bullet just off of the L&Gs and others like the bullets to get a run at the L&Gs. There is no magic number as to where a gun may like it. I have several rifles that won't shoot any weight bullet unless it is seated deep. And then I have some that want it close to the L&Gs. All rifles are not the same and finding the sweet spot is what reloading is about. If it shoots it accurately and no signs of pressure, it's a good load.

**Unclenick** · November 20, 2008, 02:41 AM

Most shooters find an accuracy peak in the distance off the lands you mentioned. It keeps the bullet from entering the bore slightly off axis. You will usually also find an accuracy sweet spot from seating the bullet so the bearing surface is about one caliber into the neck. Its a place where the case neck tension (another factor in accuracy) does a good job on creating consistent start pressure. The jump to the throat is on of significance if a misalignment occurs on the way. I have wondered if the other factor to seating one caliber deep is that it allows enough gas blow-by to create a cushion for the bullet to align on?

Your short bullets are going to like a fast powder, relatively. Reloader 10X was developed especially for light bullets. IMR 4198 appears to do just about as well in that bullet weight in the .308 Win cartridge, and has a good reputation for accuracy.

ryalred · November 20, 2008, 06:19 AM

I don't know why some get such good accuracy, but I just know that some guns will shoot well with the bullet backed off the lands quite a bit. Weatherby rifles are noted for having long throats with bullets back off the lands and most of them shoot very well. I reload for a Vanguard .257 Wby Mag and I seat bullets to the depth of factory ammo and it shoots GREAT!

Sam06 · November 20, 2008, 08:35 AM

Different guns have different chamber depths. The Vanguard like the guys above has shoots a Weatherby cartridge. It needs "FreeBore" to use all the powder in the case. The free bore acts as an extension of the cartridge and helps burn all the powder in the case while keeping Pressure down.

I have never shot 110 gr V-Max's out of a 308. That is a very short bullet and I would not think it would be very stable at High vel. with the twist rate a normal 308 has(1:10 or 1:12). I know some of the guys who shoot Ground Hogs at extreme range use 125g V-max but there guns are set up for it. Slow twist Barrels and short chambers.

If you are going to use the 110 v-max bullet here is what I would do:

Find a load that is going to give you good vel but not the hottest. Then load 30-50 rounds in either 5 or 10 round batches at different seating depths. See which one shoots the best. Then once you have found the depth the gun likes start messing with the powders and primers.

Nosler makes a 135g bullet for SSP. I have loaded it for my Rem 700 PSS in 308 and used it on Ground Hogs and P dogs. The bullet is made to expand at low vel so it expands at long range from a 308. You can push them fast also and they are accurate. The 125gr bullets never gave me the accuracy I wanted out of my gun. As I said before I have never used 110 in anything but a M1 Carbine.

Good luck

TFL4L · November 20, 2008, 12:19 PM

Some good thoughts here.

I have heard of multiple folks shooting the factory Hornady 110 TAP, which uses the 110 V-max bullet, out of standard .308 rifles (Rem 700, etc) with terrific accuracy. I, too, would have thought that light of a bullet would not stabilize well in standard 1:12 twist barrels.

I just finished a load development ladder to find the sweet spot on powder charge, and then will fine tune with seating depths.

BTW--thanks for the rec on 10x...I may have to look into that in the future, but all I have on hand is Varget. Besides, temperature stability is very important to me, as I shoot in temps ranging from 30 degrees to 100 degrees.

James R. Burke · January 3, 2009, 02:34 PM

I reload the 110 V Max for my Ruger No 1 A light sporter. By no means is this a target gun but I cant believe how accurate these bullets are. I'am using Lapua brass CCI large rifle primers, and Varget powder. I am using 58.4 grains, and have the bullet seated just a little short of the diameter of the bullet. I know you should be seated at least to the diameter of the bullet but it is holding very tight, and only used in a single shot rifle. Doing a five shot average I am getting 3712 f.p.s. It will shoot five shot groups under 3/4" of a inch at 100 yards all day long, and like I said it is no target gun. It really blows woodchucks up, and is just plain out fun to shoot. Never had a problem of any type with them, or coming apart at high speed.

hardhit · January 3, 2009, 07:23 PM

A very short bullet in deed
I shoot a Nosler 125 grain BT out of my 308 win, If I try to seat that bullet any closer than .15 off the lands the bullet will fall out of the case mouth if its dropped or knocked, its only got .1 to .2 gripping the bullet above the heel of the boat tail at this seating depth.
So I seat .20-25 off the lands and accuracy is .5 or better @ 100 yards. I also load for 257 WBY MAG accumark and there’s no way to get any bullet near the lands even with 110 grain accubonds, so I load to the magazine spick, even when shooting 87 grain sierra soft points it has still shot under .5 group with some bedding and trigger mods I find this to be out standing accuracy for a bullet to be seated that far off the lands and still shoot like that I cant explain it.

**Unclenick** · January 3, 2009, 08:24 PM

James,

Welcome to the forum.

Seating a bullet one caliber deep is a rule of thumb. It is no absolute. Indeed, moving the seating depth in small increments can be as important to tuning a load in some guns at varying powder charge can.

I am a bit concerned about your load though. Your gun is chambered in .308? I ran it in QuickLOAD and, assuming your Ruger has a 26" barrel and is chambered in .308 Winchester, I show that load very, very heavily compressed (120% of case volume; should be impossible to fit in the case without distorting it?) and the pressure exceeding 80,000 psi. Your Ruger may actually handle that, but it is above proof pressure for many guns, so you need to read the sticky at the top of this handloading forum called Required Read, and copy the required warning into your post. Hodgdon's load data shows just 50 grains as the maximum with a 110 grain Barnes bullet, and already compressed.

Nick

hardhit · January 3, 2009, 09:10 PM

I thought James may have been loading for the 30-06 but I would stand corrected.
in my book 58.4 grains of Varget is .6 of a grain off maximum load in the 06 and produces 3455 fps in a 24 inch barrel a little shy of 3712 fps.
But If it’s the 308 win the load won't fit into the 308 case, 50 grains of Varget is a max load in the 308 using 110 grain pill,
and fills it to the bottom of the neck using a drop tube.

James R. Burke · January 4, 2009, 06:41 PM

Hi,
Thank you for the big welcome. I am shooting a .30-06 with the 110 V Max.
Using Varget powder 58.4 grains giving me about a 93% fill. The gun is a Ruger No 1 A light sporter, that I am very happy with. Like I said they are clocking at 3712 f.p.s. on a five shot average. I am still about a half grain under the max, and showing no presure what so ever. I am seated just off the lands. The bullet is just short of .308 when seated. I know you should be seated at least the diameter of the bullet, but the tension is great, and being a single shot I am able to get away with it. My wife has the same gun in a .243 with even the same scope. It's nicae if you change rifles everything is the same except the caliber. The scopes are the Leupold 3x9x40mm century limited editions. Like I said this is no target gun but it will shoot under 3/4" of a inch a the 100 yard mark. I know thats not terrific but for the gun and small bullet it is fine for me. Thank you for the replys, and concerns.
Jim

James R. Burke · January 4, 2009, 06:53 PM

Hi again guys,
Just wanted to say thank you again for the concern. My Hornady manual has the max Varget at 58.9 at 3400 f.p.s. I am under by .5 but I am getting 3712 f.p.s. and like I said no signs or presure, and shooting great. Is this o.k. or should I back it off to the 3400 f.p.s. ? Thank you again for your help.
Jim

BradF · January 4, 2009, 07:38 PM

James, if you aren't have any problems then your load should be safe. I assume you're shooting through a chrony since you listed the 5 shot average fps. You're barrel is probably a different length than the one tested in the Hornady manual, which would change the fps.

James R. Burke · January 5, 2009, 06:27 PM

Hi Brad,
Thanks for the reply, very nice of you. I reload for about twelve differnt rifles, and pistols. Been doing for along time now. I always use the manual for the bullet I will be using. The wife is not very happy because I am always getting a new for a new bullet or something. All my shots were thru a crony that is very accurate. I just wanted to let the fellow now that was concerned about a little bullet staying together at a fast f.p.s. that I had no problems with the v-max. I have heard some people say they come apart at around 3500 but mine are staying together just fine. My Ruger has a 22" barrel believe or not. I guess I was lucky on having a shorter chamber, and I cant believe how accurate they stayed being pushed that hard. I have three Ruger No #1's I reload for. The other two are a .243 light sporter, and a .416 Rem Mag. Fun guns to shoot. This is a nice forum, and it is really cool kicking around ideas or concerns. Again thank you for the reply, and advice Brad.
Jim

TFL4L · January 6, 2009, 05:27 PM

James--I think the main concern initially was that I had started this as a .308 thread, and your powder weights are not only scary high, but physically impossible to fit into a .308 case.

3/4"? Are you kidding? That's not "just okay"--that is phenomenal for most shooters at 100 yards. Few factory guns will truly shoot less than 1 MOA with 5-shot groups, regardless of what people claim with 3-shot groups.

James R. Burke · January 6, 2009, 06:33 PM

You are totaly right about the thread being about the .308 rifle. I should have stated from the start it was for the .30-06 my fault there. I know some people have had some bad luck with the Ruger No#1's, but I have three of them, and they all shoot great, never done any work on them except work up really good loads, and trying to keep them close to the lands. But that 110 V Max does stabalize really good, stays together, and is really accurate. Thank you all very much for the input, and concern. A big thanks on the compliment. Take care-
Jim

November 20, 2008, 02:41 AM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Most shooters find an accuracy peak in the distance off the lands you mentioned. It keeps the bullet from entering the bore slightly off axis. You will usually also find an accuracy sweet spot from seating the bullet so the bearing surface is about one caliber into the neck. Its a place where the case neck tension (another factor in accuracy) does a good job on creating consistent start pressure. The jump to the throat is on of significance if a misalignment occurs on the way. I have wondered if the other factor to seating one caliber deep is that it allows enough gas blow-by to create a cushion for the bullet to align on? Your short bullets are going to like a fast powder, relatively. Reloader 10X was developed especially for light bullets. IMR 4198 appears to do just about as well in that bullet weight in the .308 Win cartridge, and has a good reputation for accuracy. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 20, 2008, 06:19 AM	#5
ryalred Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Location: SE Oklahoma Posts: 491	I don't know why some get such good accuracy, but I just know that some guns will shoot well with the bullet backed off the lands quite a bit. Weatherby rifles are noted for having long throats with bullets back off the lands and most of them shoot very well. I reload for a Vanguard .257 Wby Mag and I seat bullets to the depth of factory ammo and it shoots GREAT! __________________ ryalred rifle & muzzleloader -- exhilarating bowhunting -- obsession reloading -- addicted

November 20, 2008, 08:35 AM	#6
Sam06 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Fayettenam Posts: 1,086	Different guns have different chamber depths. The Vanguard like the guys above has shoots a Weatherby cartridge. It needs "FreeBore" to use all the powder in the case. The free bore acts as an extension of the cartridge and helps burn all the powder in the case while keeping Pressure down. I have never shot 110 gr V-Max's out of a 308. That is a very short bullet and I would not think it would be very stable at High vel. with the twist rate a normal 308 has(1:10 or 1:12). I know some of the guys who shoot Ground Hogs at extreme range use 125g V-max but there guns are set up for it. Slow twist Barrels and short chambers. If you are going to use the 110 v-max bullet here is what I would do: Find a load that is going to give you good vel but not the hottest. Then load 30-50 rounds in either 5 or 10 round batches at different seating depths. See which one shoots the best. Then once you have found the depth the gun likes start messing with the powders and primers. Nosler makes a 135g bullet for SSP. I have loaded it for my Rem 700 PSS in 308 and used it on Ground Hogs and P dogs. The bullet is made to expand at low vel so it expands at long range from a 308. You can push them fast also and they are accurate. The 125gr bullets never gave me the accuracy I wanted out of my gun. As I said before I have never used 110 in anything but a M1 Carbine. Good luck __________________ The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

January 3, 2009, 02:34 PM	#8
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	110 V Max Bullets I reload the 110 V Max for my Ruger No 1 A light sporter. By no means is this a target gun but I cant believe how accurate these bullets are. I'am using Lapua brass CCI large rifle primers, and Varget powder. I am using 58.4 grains, and have the bullet seated just a little short of the diameter of the bullet. I know you should be seated at least to the diameter of the bullet but it is holding very tight, and only used in a single shot rifle. Doing a five shot average I am getting 3712 f.p.s. It will shoot five shot groups under 3/4" of a inch at 100 yards all day long, and like I said it is no target gun. It really blows woodchucks up, and is just plain out fun to shoot. Never had a problem of any type with them, or coming apart at high speed.

January 3, 2009, 07:23 PM	#9
hardhit Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2008 Posts: 343	A very short bullet in deed I shoot a Nosler 125 grain BT out of my 308 win, If I try to seat that bullet any closer than .15 off the lands the bullet will fall out of the case mouth if its dropped or knocked, its only got .1 to .2 gripping the bullet above the heel of the boat tail at this seating depth. So I seat .20-25 off the lands and accuracy is .5 or better @ 100 yards. I also load for 257 WBY MAG accumark and there’s no way to get any bullet near the lands even with 110 grain accubonds, so I load to the magazine spick, even when shooting 87 grain sierra soft points it has still shot under .5 group with some bedding and trigger mods I find this to be out standing accuracy for a bullet to be seated that far off the lands and still shoot like that I cant explain it. Last edited by hardhit; January 3, 2009 at 08:17 PM.

November 13, 2008, 01:59 PM	#1
TFL4L Member Join Date: October 8, 2004 Posts: 45	.308 110-grain V-max...counterintuitive bullet seating depth? Someone had mentioned the 110-grain V-max seated to 2.700" OAL with very impressive accuracy. (BTW, Hornady lists a 2.740" min OAL) I understand that the 110 V-max is a short bullet, and therefore can't be set too long in order to still have sufficient depth of bullet properly seated in the case. However, general wisdom goes with .02-.04" off the lands. However, with a 2.700" OAL, there is a whopping .10"+ jump to the lands...yet some get great accuracy. What gives?

November 19, 2008, 06:48 PM	#2
TFL4L Member Join Date: October 8, 2004 Posts: 45	I know there are a lot of experienced loaders here--any thought?

November 19, 2008, 11:50 PM	#3
Loader9 Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2008 Posts: 949	COL is the key to making a gun shoot. Some like the bullet just off of the L&Gs and others like the bullets to get a run at the L&Gs. There is no magic number as to where a gun may like it. I have several rifles that won't shoot any weight bullet unless it is seated deep. And then I have some that want it close to the L&Gs. All rifles are not the same and finding the sweet spot is what reloading is about. If it shoots it accurately and no signs of pressure, it's a good load.

November 20, 2008, 12:19 PM	#7
TFL4L Member Join Date: October 8, 2004 Posts: 45	Some good thoughts here. I have heard of multiple folks shooting the factory Hornady 110 TAP, which uses the 110 V-max bullet, out of standard .308 rifles (Rem 700, etc) with terrific accuracy. I, too, would have thought that light of a bullet would not stabilize well in standard 1:12 twist barrels. I just finished a load development ladder to find the sweet spot on powder charge, and then will fine tune with seating depths. BTW--thanks for the rec on 10x...I may have to look into that in the future, but all I have on hand is Varget. Besides, temperature stability is very important to me, as I shoot in temps ranging from 30 degrees to 100 degrees.

January 3, 2009, 08:24 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	James, Welcome to the forum. Seating a bullet one caliber deep is a rule of thumb. It is no absolute. Indeed, moving the seating depth in small increments can be as important to tuning a load in some guns at varying powder charge can. I am a bit concerned about your load though. Your gun is chambered in .308? I ran it in QuickLOAD and, assuming your Ruger has a 26" barrel and is chambered in .308 Winchester, I show that load very, very heavily compressed (120% of case volume; should be impossible to fit in the case without distorting it?) and the pressure exceeding 80,000 psi. Your Ruger may actually handle that, but it is above proof pressure for many guns, so you need to read the sticky at the top of this handloading forum called Required Read, and copy the required warning into your post. Hodgdon's load data shows just 50 grains as the maximum with a 110 grain Barnes bullet, and already compressed. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; January 3, 2009 at 08:30 PM.

January 3, 2009, 09:10 PM	#11
hardhit Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2008 Posts: 343	I thought James may have been loading for the 30-06 but I would stand corrected. in my book 58.4 grains of Varget is .6 of a grain off maximum load in the 06 and produces 3455 fps in a 24 inch barrel a little shy of 3712 fps. But If it’s the 308 win the load won't fit into the 308 case, 50 grains of Varget is a max load in the 308 using 110 grain pill, and fills it to the bottom of the neck using a drop tube.

January 4, 2009, 06:41 PM	#12
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	110 V Mas Hi, Thank you for the big welcome. I am shooting a .30-06 with the 110 V Max. Using Varget powder 58.4 grains giving me about a 93% fill. The gun is a Ruger No 1 A light sporter, that I am very happy with. Like I said they are clocking at 3712 f.p.s. on a five shot average. I am still about a half grain under the max, and showing no presure what so ever. I am seated just off the lands. The bullet is just short of .308 when seated. I know you should be seated at least the diameter of the bullet, but the tension is great, and being a single shot I am able to get away with it. My wife has the same gun in a .243 with even the same scope. It's nicae if you change rifles everything is the same except the caliber. The scopes are the Leupold 3x9x40mm century limited editions. Like I said this is no target gun but it will shoot under 3/4" of a inch a the 100 yard mark. I know thats not terrific but for the gun and small bullet it is fine for me. Thank you for the replys, and concerns. Jim

January 4, 2009, 06:53 PM	#13
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	110 V Max Hi again guys, Just wanted to say thank you again for the concern. My Hornady manual has the max Varget at 58.9 at 3400 f.p.s. I am under by .5 but I am getting 3712 f.p.s. and like I said no signs or presure, and shooting great. Is this o.k. or should I back it off to the 3400 f.p.s. ? Thank you again for your help. Jim

January 4, 2009, 07:38 PM	#14
BradF Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: NE AL Posts: 172	James, if you aren't have any problems then your load should be safe. I assume you're shooting through a chrony since you listed the 5 shot average fps. You're barrel is probably a different length than the one tested in the Hornady manual, which would change the fps.

January 5, 2009, 06:27 PM	#15
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	110 V Max Hi Brad, Thanks for the reply, very nice of you. I reload for about twelve differnt rifles, and pistols. Been doing for along time now. I always use the manual for the bullet I will be using. The wife is not very happy because I am always getting a new for a new bullet or something. All my shots were thru a crony that is very accurate. I just wanted to let the fellow now that was concerned about a little bullet staying together at a fast f.p.s. that I had no problems with the v-max. I have heard some people say they come apart at around 3500 but mine are staying together just fine. My Ruger has a 22" barrel believe or not. I guess I was lucky on having a shorter chamber, and I cant believe how accurate they stayed being pushed that hard. I have three Ruger No #1's I reload for. The other two are a .243 light sporter, and a .416 Rem Mag. Fun guns to shoot. This is a nice forum, and it is really cool kicking around ideas or concerns. Again thank you for the reply, and advice Brad. Jim

January 6, 2009, 05:27 PM	#16
TFL4L Member Join Date: October 8, 2004 Posts: 45	James--I think the main concern initially was that I had started this as a .308 thread, and your powder weights are not only scary high, but physically impossible to fit into a .308 case. 3/4"? Are you kidding? That's not "just okay"--that is phenomenal for most shooters at 100 yards. Few factory guns will truly shoot less than 1 MOA with 5-shot groups, regardless of what people claim with 3-shot groups.

January 6, 2009, 06:33 PM	#17
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	110 V Max You are totaly right about the thread being about the .308 rifle. I should have stated from the start it was for the .30-06 my fault there. I know some people have had some bad luck with the Ruger No#1's, but I have three of them, and they all shoot great, never done any work on them except work up really good loads, and trying to keep them close to the lands. But that 110 V Max does stabalize really good, stays together, and is really accurate. Thank you all very much for the input, and concern. A big thanks on the compliment. Take care- Jim