What about avoiding gunplay in the first place? - Page 2

sfmedic · April 11, 2013, 12:28 PM

Glenn - you fleshed out my point better than I could. Im more inclined to give up the cash than bring it to another level. I have been in a "good shooting" and as one of the posters said before - the sheriff doesnt buy you a beer and the piano player doesn't pick up were he left off.

NPD · April 11, 2013, 01:53 PM

This is a pretty good read.

http://www.useofforce.us/4details/

Evan Thomas · April 11, 2013, 03:36 PM

NPD, welcome to TFL.

That is a useful site, and any one who carries should have all that information (as applied in his/her state) thoroughly ingrained. But it's mainly about when the use of force is justified, which is a somewhat different topic from how to avoid needing to use force in the first place.

No Nonsense Self Defense is a site that covers this really well. Anyone who isn't familiar with it, should be.

I'm a bit surprised it hasn't come up in this thread already.

spacemanspiff · April 11, 2013, 04:01 PM

Quote:

How much time do instructors spend to incorporate staying out of trouble into their programs?
second question whats it take to pull a gun? two people die in a situation John Wayne and Woody Allen - how far between the two do people go?

The first question - I think I put that in the category of 'common sense'. Granted, not everyone has it, and not everyone can learn it. But common sense tells me that my first option should be to de-escalate via verbal skills. Failing that, I move on to other options, deadly force being the final resort. Sometimes there may be 3 options, sometimes there may be only the one. Its up to me to determine that.
The second question, you are asking a question that everyone may have a different answer to.

Ben Dover · April 11, 2013, 09:28 PM

The only fight you truly "win" is the one you avoid.

Wreck-n-Crew · April 12, 2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

The real first rule of gunfighting is, "Stay the hell out of gunfights any way you can."

That should be thing that is natural, but i find myself in bad places because of work and family. Everyday someone new is shot in a robbery where i have to be at least weekly. Carjacking and robing someone in broad open daylight...things are crazy.

The last thing i want is to be sitting in my vehicle or walking to my vehicle when someone targets me. Like was previously stated about the behavior of someone who just screams i am about to do something. Looking around to see who is watching while they approach.

In that moment, if you don't notice,if you are distracted, your sidearm could be useless. Hand on your sidearm, non-Verbal warning gos out, Verbal warning next, What's on your mind!

They get it, no easy, done right....threat avoided. Heart still pounds...eyes scanning. Thank god i wasn't on my phone!

Brit · April 14, 2013, 06:22 AM

Quote:

If you carry a gun, you should have an attorney on retainer and have his phone number memorized. (Prisoners don't get to keep their cell phones.)

Or their shoe laces, or their belts. Notice the Court appearances on the TV News, Jail house clothes are mostly Coveralls.

We all rely on the saved numbers in our phones! No phone, no numbers, good comment by James K.

sfmedic · April 14, 2013, 08:53 AM

I find the white tyvex coveralls with the orange flip flops to be quite the fashion statement :-)

another good reason to resist the urge to pull that weapon. that and the handcuff marks, The unflattering mugshots , the medical pics if it involved a fight, the thorough searches, the friendly interviews :-) the attorney costs, the court costs , the media exposure, the stress your family goes through, the confiscation of your weapon until the case is settled, The subsequent lawsuit and all its costs by the family, the worrying about his friends seeking revenge

and it would really suck if you weren't in the right.

well at least your not the one dead or injured :-)

deepcreek · April 14, 2013, 09:24 AM

If I go and pay for gun training I would want gun training. I don't want how to stay out of trouble training I have had that through out my life and most of it I classify as common sense.

If you shoot someone out on the street you have a very high likelihood of going to prison. Most people know this or they will probably get some time to think about it if they are too stupid or don't care.

Brit · April 14, 2013, 09:29 AM

SFMEDIC,

One of the reasons people die, or are grievously injured in a confrontation! They are held back by the "I will get in to trouble" Thought, it seems the worry of prosecution, is more than the worry of death of them selves, and their loved ones.

Police Instructors push that heavily. Hence "Drop the Knife" repeated over and over, said knife now buried in chest!

Tactical Jackalope · April 14, 2013, 09:41 AM

I feel you're supposed to be the weapon and the gun, knife, baton, or flashlight is just an extra. If it's the other way around then I'd seek more training.

My gun is my last resort and always will be.

However the comment on "chump change" and just giving it up. I wish that would be how it always is if it was ever going to happen. It's a tough call to make. I know personally where I live, that's not the case. You don't just "get robbed" of your goods.

There's surveillance of a rather recent issue here (it's not isolated it happens often, this time we had surveillance) that a woman was walking out of a store with her purse over her shoulder and a car doubled back where the passenger leaped out and grabbed her bag. She then put her hands up and he shot her in the head. Got into the car and took off.

It's too tough of a call to make. So sadly, I think it's better off fighting..Too much of a gamble with your own life in the hands of scum that takes what you worked hard to earn yourself. To take away what God himself gave you the gift of, life. They don't care if your kids are waiting for you at home or that lunch date you planned with your lover. So why leave your life in their hands to judge on impulse whether to squeeze the trigger or not.

It's sad we have to think this was. Criminals are developing the blackest of hearts.

Even then, lets say after the fact. You decide to pull and lets also say. You hit your target. Regardless, since we're the good guys. Most of the time you will have to live with yourself and you will lose sleep at night. Unlike what would happen to the criminal if the situation was reverse.

Guess it's better to be alive right? Maybe. Too many things can go wrong.

Every situation varies and I hope no one that's a good guy on here ever has to go through anything of the sort.

**Frank Ettin** · April 14, 2013, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brit

...One of the reasons people die, or are grievously injured in a confrontation! They are held back...

And one of the reasons some people wind up in jail is sometmes that they don't recognize an option.

That's a reason that Force-on-Force training can be valuable. It provides that chance to study and practice situation assessment under stress.

The last time I was at Gunsite, we did a F-on-F exercise that was set up to include an opportunity for avoidance. Not everyone recognized that opportunity, but in the debriefing that followed the exercise it became clear that avoidance was probably the best choice.

Brit · April 14, 2013, 01:32 PM

Frank,

Having spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK, 1960 to 1965, the first 4 years at the Cavern club, of Beatles fame.

These were violent years. I was part time, Thursday/Friday/Saturday nights, 7 PM till around Midnight.

I learned not to think! Thinking takes too long! You could be dead and buried, before you moved.

A young man, most likely deranged (someone looked after him, he was well dressed, collar and tie, gleaming shoes) but not playing with a full deck.

He tried to kill me with a home made ice pick, aimed directly for my sternum!

He was left handed, the blade entered my right wrist (I moved to grab his arm) the bang against the side wall knocked him out, my steel toed kick to the head as he fell, knocked 4 teeth out, broke his jaw, his eye socket was caved in.

The Police we called wanted to lock me up, till I showed the stab wound (and the weapon) he went in the Paddy Wagon, I went to the Emergency ward.

Lots of shots!

My conclusion in fights/attacks, he who hesitates looses.

In my ten years in the USA, I have been in 3 incidents, no, I did not shoot anyone, almost on one. One hands on, one ready to shoot, the two local, I think, Gang bangers in training, they eye balled me, I saw no weapons, their hands were in plain sight, they left.

This was at 2pm, in Dr. Philips, outside a hi end Grocery store. Out of the blue!
(they were following my Wife, in the Store, I love Cell Phones). You can never switch off, never.

**Frank Ettin** · April 14, 2013, 02:01 PM

Brit,

Your experiences were your experiences, and it's good that your training and skills were up to the problems you faced.

However, your experiences were your experiences, and others have had different experiences. One reason for good, professional training is that we get a chance to learn from a broad range of the experiences of many.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brit

...I learned not to think! Thinking takes too long!...

Yes, that's another good reason for good, professional training, and for good practice. It takes good training and practice to develop the facility for making the right decisions and doing the right things on demand and reflexively (without conscious thought).

The subject of this thread is avoiding gunplay (or in a large sense, avoiding the fight). There are good reasons to do so when it's possible to do so without jeopardizing your safety or the safety of a loved one. And there are therefore good reasons for learning to correctly decide, reflexively, when that is a viable option and how to achieve that result.

But a good outcome still requires making the right decisions and doing the right things. One could react without thinking and make the wrong decisions and do the wrong things; and if he does, he probably won't be so happy with the outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brit

...My conclusion in fights/attacks, he who hesitates looses...

Yes, but there are various ways to lose. Making the wrong decisions and doing the wrong things, like failing to avoid the avoidable conflict, could wind up with you in jail for a long time; and that would be another way to lose -- especially if by making the right decisions and doing the right things you could have avoided the fight/attack and just gone home to a quiet evening with your family.

FireForged · April 14, 2013, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Who (instructors) here devotes any of there training time during weapon classes to actually avoiding the threat...

A firearms class is exactly that.. self defense strategy is a totally different subject altogether. If I go to a CPR class, I don't want to talk about healthy eating.

James K · April 14, 2013, 09:27 PM

I wonder what a fellow named Zimmerman would have done differently if given another chance.

Jim

Brit · April 14, 2013, 10:18 PM

Good post Frank, you make sense. could wind up with you in jail for a long time

Do not agree with the bolded bit though! I am 77 YOA you know!

Ben Dover · April 15, 2013, 02:16 PM

In my opinion, an instructor that does not teach conflict avoidance is not a self defense instructor.

markj · April 15, 2013, 04:02 PM

What is this avoid? You mean not be confrontational? and aggressive? not to just shoot the guy? Why that takes away all the bravado.....

Miyagi said, is no fight if you are not there...

I try to avoid them except when I am riding with my bud Jerry, he is 6ft 8 and a hells angel

no gun needed, I got a Jerry

He looked crossly at a dude one time, that guy wet hisself....

April 11, 2013, 03:36 PM	#28
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	NPD, welcome to TFL. That is a useful site, and any one who carries should have all that information (as applied in his/her state) thoroughly ingrained. But it's mainly about when the use of force is justified, which is a somewhat different topic from how to avoid needing to use force in the first place. No Nonsense Self Defense is a site that covers this really well. Anyone who isn't familiar with it, should be. I'm a bit surprised it hasn't come up in this thread already. __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

April 11, 2013, 09:28 PM	#30
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	The only fight you truly "win" is the one you avoid. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

April 14, 2013, 01:32 PM	#38
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	Frank, Having spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK, 1960 to 1965, the first 4 years at the Cavern club, of Beatles fame. These were violent years. I was part time, Thursday/Friday/Saturday nights, 7 PM till around Midnight. I learned not to think! Thinking takes too long! You could be dead and buried, before you moved. A young man, most likely deranged (someone looked after him, he was well dressed, collar and tie, gleaming shoes) but not playing with a full deck. He tried to kill me with a home made ice pick, aimed directly for my sternum! He was left handed, the blade entered my right wrist (I moved to grab his arm) the bang against the side wall knocked him out, my steel toed kick to the head as he fell, knocked 4 teeth out, broke his jaw, his eye socket was caved in. The Police we called wanted to lock me up, till I showed the stab wound (and the weapon) he went in the Paddy Wagon, I went to the Emergency ward. Lots of shots! My conclusion in fights/attacks, he who hesitates looses. In my ten years in the USA, I have been in 3 incidents, no, I did not shoot anyone, almost on one. One hands on, one ready to shoot, the two local, I think, Gang bangers in training, they eye balled me, I saw no weapons, their hands were in plain sight, they left. This was at 2pm, in Dr. Philips, outside a hi end Grocery store. Out of the blue! (they were following my Wife, in the Store, I love Cell Phones). You can never switch off, never. Last edited by Brit; April 14, 2013 at 01:37 PM.

April 15, 2013, 02:16 PM	#43
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	In my opinion, an instructor that does not teach conflict avoidance is not a self defense instructor. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for. Last edited by Evan Thomas; April 15, 2013 at 03:40 PM. Reason: typo

April 11, 2013, 12:28 PM	#26
sfmedic Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2012 Location: Currently Erbil, Iraq Posts: 106	Glenn - you fleshed out my point better than I could. Im more inclined to give up the cash than bring it to another level. I have been in a "good shooting" and as one of the posters said before - the sheriff doesnt buy you a beer and the piano player doesn't pick up were he left off.

April 11, 2013, 01:53 PM	#27
NPD Junior Member Join Date: April 10, 2013 Posts: 1	This is a pretty good read. http://www.useofforce.us/4details/

April 14, 2013, 08:53 AM	#33
sfmedic Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2012 Location: Currently Erbil, Iraq Posts: 106	I find the white tyvex coveralls with the orange flip flops to be quite the fashion statement :-) another good reason to resist the urge to pull that weapon. that and the handcuff marks, The unflattering mugshots , the medical pics if it involved a fight, the thorough searches, the friendly interviews :-) the attorney costs, the court costs , the media exposure, the stress your family goes through, the confiscation of your weapon until the case is settled, The subsequent lawsuit and all its costs by the family, the worrying about his friends seeking revenge and it would really suck if you weren't in the right. well at least your not the one dead or injured :-)

April 14, 2013, 09:24 AM	#34
deepcreek Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2013 Location: Colorado Posts: 320	If I go and pay for gun training I would want gun training. I don't want how to stay out of trouble training I have had that through out my life and most of it I classify as common sense. If you shoot someone out on the street you have a very high likelihood of going to prison. Most people know this or they will probably get some time to think about it if they are too stupid or don't care.

April 14, 2013, 09:29 AM	#35
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	SFMEDIC, One of the reasons people die, or are grievously injured in a confrontation! They are held back by the "I will get in to trouble" Thought, it seems the worry of prosecution, is more than the worry of death of them selves, and their loved ones. Police Instructors push that heavily. Hence "Drop the Knife" repeated over and over, said knife now buried in chest!

April 14, 2013, 09:41 AM	#36
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	I feel you're supposed to be the weapon and the gun, knife, baton, or flashlight is just an extra. If it's the other way around then I'd seek more training. My gun is my last resort and always will be. However the comment on "chump change" and just giving it up. I wish that would be how it always is if it was ever going to happen. It's a tough call to make. I know personally where I live, that's not the case. You don't just "get robbed" of your goods. There's surveillance of a rather recent issue here (it's not isolated it happens often, this time we had surveillance) that a woman was walking out of a store with her purse over her shoulder and a car doubled back where the passenger leaped out and grabbed her bag. She then put her hands up and he shot her in the head. Got into the car and took off. It's too tough of a call to make. So sadly, I think it's better off fighting..Too much of a gamble with your own life in the hands of scum that takes what you worked hard to earn yourself. To take away what God himself gave you the gift of, life. They don't care if your kids are waiting for you at home or that lunch date you planned with your lover. So why leave your life in their hands to judge on impulse whether to squeeze the trigger or not. It's sad we have to think this was. Criminals are developing the blackest of hearts. Even then, lets say after the fact. You decide to pull and lets also say. You hit your target. Regardless, since we're the good guys. Most of the time you will have to live with yourself and you will lose sleep at night. Unlike what would happen to the criminal if the situation was reverse. Guess it's better to be alive right? Maybe. Too many things can go wrong. Every situation varies and I hope no one that's a good guy on here ever has to go through anything of the sort.

April 14, 2013, 09:27 PM	#41
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I wonder what a fellow named Zimmerman would have done differently if given another chance. Jim

April 14, 2013, 10:18 PM	#42
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	Good post Frank, you make sense. could wind up with you in jail for a long time Do not agree with the bolded bit though! I am 77 YOA you know!

April 15, 2013, 04:02 PM	#44
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	What is this avoid? You mean not be confrontational? and aggressive? not to just shoot the guy? Why that takes away all the bravado..... Miyagi said, is no fight if you are not there... I try to avoid them except when I am riding with my bud Jerry, he is 6ft 8 and a hells angel no gun needed, I got a Jerry He looked crossly at a dude one time, that guy wet hisself....