Won this rust locked up S&W 1917 snubbie at auction yesterday

[Bill Akins]

Edink wrote:
Seriously, the going rate of other guns makes little difference on a completely non-functioning firearm. You got fleeced on that thing. Basically, you made (sic "paid") $400 for some worn grips and rusted scrap metal.

If it's not too late, I would refuse the transfer and get my money back. By the time that P.O.S. is serviceable (nevermind fully restored), you'll have as much money tied up in it as you would just buying a decent one from the beginning.

Ed, it would depend on exactly what it was that was making it non functional and exactly what it required to fix it. If it's an easy fix, then I believe the going rate on the same model gun does have an impact on a non functioning one's price. I'm pretty good at making and fixing things in metal. Sometimes I even make my own replacement parts if it's not too complicated or needs special heat treating.

Regarding the grips being "worn". Three of the experts at the Smith and Wesson forum have told me that those are in fact real India Sanbar Stag grips despite the auction description saying they are "synthetic". One of them even said he was sure beyond a shadow of a doubt. They told me the grips would be worth from $150.00 to several hundred dollars just for the grips. So if the grips are worth that much, that definitely mitigates what I paid for it. I also do not believe the metal on the gun is "scrap metal" as you put it.

But as the old saying goes, "You pays your ticket and you takes your chances"....when it comes to an online auction where you can't physically pre-inspect the revolver before bidding. Worst case scenario would be in addition to if those grips are truly India Sanbar stags, that it would be an excellent source for a frame and internal parts. Have you tried to find and price parts for a S&W 1917 lately? They are hard to find and expensive. I could probably part the gun out as parts for more than I paid for it. But that is not my intention.

Finally, I can't get my money back as you suggested. It was an online auction already charged to my credit card and I agreed to the terms of the auction, the item was correctly described by the auction house as locked up and inoperable, so I can't claim misrepresentation. Neither do I want my money back. I look forward to completing this project and posting in the future what my "rusted scrap metal" will look like when I am finished with it.


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[Bill Akins]

Shep854 wrote:
Hmmm. For some reason, that gun looks familiar...

Lol Shep. For some reason your user name looks familiar to me too. Lol.

(Shep is also at the Smith and Wesson forum fellas, where I also posted about this project to get advice. Lots of good advice both here at the Firing Line and the S&W forum).




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[stu925]

I'd leave the barrel and put a front sight on it provided that barrel is usable. Sounds like a fun project, make sure you post some pictures after it's done.

Stu

[DFrame]

Thats exactly what I would do as well. I don't think I would even refinish it. I'd just remove all traces of rust, repair the action, mount a front sight, and "Shoot the h*** out of it"

[Bill Akins]

Stu, when I get it I'll post some more "before" pics and then some as I work on it and also when I get it finished.


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[Bill Akins]

Picked up my cut barrel 1917 S&W from my dealer today. It was in much better shape than I had thought from the auction photos. Even at the dealer's the hammer and trigger worked and the cylinder turned although on several of the cylinder's chambers it was hard to turn and needed my manual help to turn. I saw that the cylinder release button was forward so there should have been nothing holding the cylinder in the frame. So I gently tapped the cylinder against my knee several times and it popped right out.

When I got it home I found out what was causing the cylinder to lock up on several chambers and also what was causing the ejector rod to bind. The ejector rod was easy to unscrew. In fact it was slightly loose. I unscrewed it, took out the skinny rod and set that aside, and on inspection found that the ejector rod was slightly bent and would not eject cartridges fully.

Shiny spot on middle of ejector rod below is where it was bent....


Ejector rod laying next to revolver.


So I laid it on a flat surface and rolled the ejector rod til I found the high spot. Then carefully tapped it straight with a hammer. It works back and forth smoothly now and fully ejects. Fixed pretty good with just a few strategic taps of a hammer. However; I'm still going to get a new old stock ejector rod for it that I've found because the big end of the rod where it is knurled is buggered up and the knurling is scratched away and gone from it being bent. It works but doesn't look pretty and still slightly binds on several chambers when the cylinder turns so I'll put on the new one and save the old one for a spare part that needs further straightening to prevent binding on all chambers of the cylinder when it turns. So everything is working pretty good mechanically now and I didn't have to soak it in kroil oil or anything. All I did was spray the insides with a bit of WD40 to slick things up a bit.

I haven't taken the side plate off and gotten to the innards yet. Even still, by all mechanics and appearances I think everything inside is okay. Cylinder lockup on both hammer back and hammer down with trigger held back is VERY tight. Much tighter than on most new revolvers! Not bad for an antique! I was very impressed with its tight lockup. The yoke mates to the frame so well that I can hardly see the seam!! They just don't take the time to hand fit revolvers like this anymore. The old saying is true...."They don't make them like they used to." I'd actually rather have this revolver than a brand new one. This is a T34 tank and made like a Swiss watch to boot!

I took it out back and fired six rounds out of it and it functioned smoothly and perfectly except for dragging a little on two chambers because of that still ever so slightly bent ejector rod that I got hammered pretty straight, but not perfect (new ejector rod will take care of that). Rifling looks good too but you can't really tell from this pic. End of barrel was nicely rounded....


Next I took off and inspected the grips that came with it, and like the experts at the Smith and Wesson forum had told me from looking at my auction photos, the grips were indeed genuine India sanbar stag grips and they told me they are worth about $200.00

I'm going to sell those India sanbar stag grips to help defray some of my cost on the revolver and after that, I'll only have about $200.00 in it. Then maybe another $50.00 for a friend to hot tank blue it (after I buff out the rust and pits), and I'll have a like new S&W 1917 snubby for around $250.00 Not too shabby when they are going for $800.00 and up on Gunbroker! I saw a nice but not perfect S&W 1917 go on Gunbroker last week for $1300.00! I've seen them go for $1500.00 and almost $2000.00 too. Prices on S&W 1917's have gone insane and they have become collector items. I was VERY lucky to get both this one and my commercial model for the prices I paid.

Wearing an oven mitt, I heated a paperclip with a torch lighter til it was red hot, then touched that to the back of one of the grips. It did not melt. Just made a little brown mark. Also I can see some of the "bark" of the stags on the inside of the grips as well as see different color tones going through the grips. No doubt they are geniune India sanbar stag grips. There is some pencil writing on the back of them that is the number "306" and a name written in cursive "Onama" or "Onawa" not sure if that second to last letter is a m or a w. Perhaps they belonged to an Asian chap at one time.

Backside of India sanbar stag grips showing "bark" going through partially to backside along with number 306 and Onama or Onawa.


Backside of India Sanbar stags off the revolver


Top side of India sanbar stags off the revolver


Continued next post due to 6 pics per post limit....



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[Bill Akins]

India sanbar stags on the revolver.


There are all kinds of small stamps all over the revolver. Crowns on the left frame and barrel, some kind of stamp that looks kind of like the head of an eagle (but not totally sure) in several spots, some kind of stamp between each chamber of the cylinder on the outside of cylinder, a small rectangular stamp on the left frame just below the cylinder that has some kind of letter or symbol and then says "ENGLISH MAKE" I think. It was so small had to look through the magnifying glass to see it, as I did most of the markings.

The serial number is 997XX on the butt and matches the serial on the cylinder. The barrel has a different serial number on its flat on the bottom of barrel.

I'm no expert on this, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was a lend lease revolver sent to England and stamped with their crowns and markings in addition to our normal U.S. military stamps. Then at some time came back into the U.S. Perhaps while still in English service it made its way to India or Asia and was owned by someone named "Onama" or "Onawa" who put the India sanbar stag grips on it.
I know, I know, it sounds spookily like OBAMA! Lol. But it is definitely either Onama or Onawa.

I received in my mail today a set of grips Smith and Wesson forum member Lee Barner had graciously sent me. I took off the India sanbar stag grips and put the plastic ones with polished wood inserts on Lee sent. They are a lot like my other set on my commercial S&W 1917 only not as thick. I have really big hands and these grips were wider than the India sanbar stags and filled my hands much better. See the comparison between the India sanbar stags thickness next to Lee's thicker plastic and wooden ones....

India sanbar stags showing thickness.




Now Lee's plastic and polished wood ones showing their thickness.....


Now two below pics comparing Lee's plastic and wood ones with my more thicker plastic and wood ones on my commercial model.


Continued next post due to 6 pics per post limit....


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[Bill Akins]

I also installed the lanyard ring that was missing today. In below pic you can see how lanyard ring goes upward into bottom of grip frame and is held in place by a pin....


Another interesting thing I couldn't see in the auction pics but saw as soon as I got it, was that obviously someone at some time had also installed a front sight and base on the cut snubby barrel. Not sure why it is missing. Either taken off on purpose or came unsoldered. You can see that in below pic where the shiny unblued spot is on the barrel.


All I have to do now is to replace the ejector rod, buff the rust and pits out, get it real shiny, then put a front sight base and sight on it, then hot tank blue it and it should look like a new revolver....only with the vintage look of a 1917 albeit with a snubby barrel.

After today's experience I feel I did really good on getting this one in the shape it is in for the price I paid.

Edink, you still think it's just a POS hunk of scrap metal with worn grips that I got took on? Lol. Sorry Ed, couldn't resist .

I'll keep y'all updated on the project as it progresses in this same thread.

That's all for now til the next episode on this project.



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[6actual]

Love the N frame bobbers

[Mike Irwin]

"you still think it's just a POS hunk of scrap metal with worn grips that I got took on?"

Can't tell. You need to find the macro feature on your camera. Then I'm sure we'll see the rust...

[Bill Akins]

Mike Irwin wrote:

Can't tell. You need to find the macro feature on your camera. Then I'm sure we'll see the rust...

Not sure if my cheap camera even has a close up feature Mike. But if it did, by the time I figured out how to use it, I'd have the rust and pits all buffed out anyway. When I'm finished with it Mike, there won't be any rust. I'll update this thread when I get more done.



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[Mike Irwin]

Well, just be careful, because in some cases, rust is structural!

[DFrame]

Please keep us updated Bill. I, for one, can't wait to see that battered old beauty given new life. I'd love to have a "New Service" snub just like it.

[gyvel]

There is some pencil writing on the back of them that is the number "306" and a name written in cursive "Onama" or "Onawa"

Are you sure it didn't say "Obama?"

[Bill Akins]

Although my 1917 commercial S&W doesn't need any parts, I didn't know if I would need any parts for the S&W 1917 snubby project revolver I just got when it came in. So before I got it, when I saw a group of 1917 S&W parts on Gunbroker, I bought them for $29.00 including shipping. I figured they might come in handy one day and some of the individual parts would cost me more than I paid for the whole bunch. What do you think for $29.00?

Here's the photos that were in the ad for all the S&W 1917 revolver parts I got.....

Ad said sideplate was buffed and left in the white and is pitted. Well....yeah! Who in their right mind would buff one out and then not finish, cold blue or at least cover in oil unprotected metal? Oh well, I figure even though the logo would likely be buffed out to get the pits out, at least it could be used again. Neither of my two S&W 1917's have a S&W logo on the right sideplate like this one. Which 1917's had the right hand sideplate S&W logo?











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[Bill Akins]

Got those critical parts just in case for myself and friends. S&W 1917 parts don't grow on trees! Some places have them, but the price looked good for all those parts in one package. Figured they'd be good to have.

I used to be a sheet metal mechanic/riviter for Piper aircraft back in the 1970's. Done my share of auto bodywork too. Got all kinds of grits of sandpaper I use all the time for metal working. From heavy coarse grit to 600 ultrafine grit. Mill, lathe, vices, Beverly sheer, fine blade bandsaw, grinding wheel, polishing wheels, air compressor, air tools, files and small fine jeweler's files. Most tools needed to do just about anything by hand excepting multiple production. Made and fixed lots of parts and things.

Just made a tiny rear blade sight from scrap steel for a friend who came over yesterday for his adjustable target sighted model Pietta 1858 black powder revolver. His orig adjustable blade rear sight had broken from a drop and he was having difficulty finding a replacement rear blade. I looked around my shop and found a piece of scrap steel that I could sheer and grind and file to work.

I had to file thickness and all over as well as sand thickness til it had no tool marks and fit very tightly in the base. The adjustable rear blade was a bad design by Pietta and the rear blades routinely fall out of them since there is nothing designed in them to keep them in the base notch if a left or right windage screw become loose and they will fall right out.

So I just made him a fixed rear blade that was driven down very tightly via hammer into the base slit for the blade and won't move unless you use a punch and hammer to move it left or right. I had to flat file and flat sand the thickness of the blade to be just right to fit very tightly into the base slit. The old file or sand a pass then check for fit, until it was close enough to square body hammer in with friction holding it very tightly. I did not put the two left and right adjustable windage screws back in but put them in a teeny baggie for him to store away.
I could always make it thinner to work with those windage screws if he wants, but then we are back to the blade falling out if either screw gets loose, just like the bad design factory ones. I like this idea better. No lost sight blade.

With the rear blade firmly hammered into the rear sight base, then with a triangular jewelers file I made my rear blade notch mark. I lined the mark up with the middle of a screw holding the top base on it its middle. That would be directly in line with the front sight and bore. Just eyeballed it carefully. Started off filing my notch with the triangular jeweler's file, then switched to a round jeweler's file and using that I filed the notch just about to the bottom of where it was supposed to go, then switched to a square jeweler's file to finish filing the bottom of the notch square on rear blade sight notch. Rounded the top corner edges of the blade so it won't catch on things. Tiny part to make. Cold blued it afterwards and it looks like a factory job.

Too late to shoot it here yesterday but he took it to the range today and I called him afterwards and he said it hit bullseyes for him and his friend and friend's wife who all shot it with its conversion cylinder firing .45 colt cartridges. I just eyeballed making it for windage and elevation and making sure it was tight when I installed it. He says it is dead on target and needs no adjustment. I was happy it worked so well for him.
I got lucky the first time and didn't have to file it down to lower the strike or adjust windage. Sorry no pics. Got it done after dark yesterday and too tired to bother taking pics. Might take some when he brings it over again one day.

I'm ordering a new deburring wheel from Enco to re-finish my S&W 1917 snubby. It doubles as both a deburring wheel and a polishing wheel. I've used them before and they will smoothly take burrs, pits, rust, and anything else out and work as a really really fast buffer. You can also polish to a mirror finish with them too. It will fit right on my buffer motor 1/2 inch shaft. At a glance it looks like a stone grinding wheel, but it isn't. If something needs a heavy buff out, it will do it much much faster than a standard sewed cloth buffing wheel. Then use the cloth buffing wheel with rouge to give it a jewelers polish quality finish.

Flat spots of course I will sand and dress up with sandpaper on a flat block or surface. Then I can make my revolver have a mirror finish with the deburring wheel followed up by a SUPER mirror polish on my fabric buffing wheel with rouge. Then clean the rouge off and get it hot tank blued with a mirror blue finish. That's my plan as soon as the Enco deburring wheel arrives.


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[10-96]

I don't have my book handy, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it's my gut feeling that none of the 1917's had the logo on the right side- unless it was one of the last one's squoze out of the plant.

[Bill Akins]

But 10-96, it is definitely a 1917 sideplate. I checked it against my other S&W 1917. Same sideplate. I just haven't seen any 1917's with the sideplate logo before. Must have been some production run of them with that logo, but when?
I've heard that S&W carried the 1917 in their catalogs until around 1947 or sometime in the late '40's. Maybe it was a run of commercial S&W 1917's made with a sideplate logo. That's the mystery. What production runs of S&W 1917's had the S&W sideplate logos and when?






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[EdInk]

I still feel your initial investment was too high but I am interested in seeing the completed restoration.

[gyvel]

But 10-96, it is definitely a 1917 sideplate.

No, incorrect.

It's definitely an "N" frame sideplate, and that's as far as you can go with it.

As far as I know, no military production 1917 had the logo emblazoned on the sideplate. The sideplate more than likely came from a commercial 5 screw "N" frame gun.

[stu925]

I'm really interested to see how the blue job comes out, sounds like you've got the polishing aspect down to a science. From what I understand the polishing job makes all the difference in how the blue job comes out. Take pictures as the work progresses for us.

Stu

[Bill Akins]

That's right Stu, the finish will only look as good as the polishing on the metal. I'll continue to post pics of the continuing project.

Several days ago I ordered a brand new, old stock, ejector rod for my project snubby S&W 1917. Got it off e bay. $23.69 including shipping.



They have more. Here's a link if anybody here needs a new S&W 1917 ejector rod.

WWI S&W Smith & Wesson 1917 .45 Revolver Extractor Rod P-1057 | eBay

Then today I ordered a 3M, scotchbrite, medium grade, deburring wheel, from Enco, that not only deburrs, but also doubles as a polishing wheel without any need for rouge. Using this wheel cuts the time WAY down on buffing. Much much easier to buff out a part than just using a sewn fabric wheel using rouge.

You can actually get a mirror polish out of it. I've used one before and it works real good and fast. I'm going to use it to polish out the parts that aren't flat and able to be flat sanded to get pits out of my snubby 1917. It should be here by tuesday. I can't over emphasize how much time you can save using this to buff and polish with compared to using a standard fabric wheel with rouge.

It looks like a stone wheel, but it isn't. Basically it's a very dense, scotchbrite wheel. Really gets the buffing/polishing job done a lot faster and without using rouge. It has a 1 inch hole, but I've got a 1/2 inch to 1 inch shaft adapter to put it on my buffing motor.

Enco has these on sale right now. Reg $68.59, on sale right now for $49.89 with $7.95 UPS shipping.

Here's a pic and the link in case anyone here would like to pick one up from Enco. Just make sure you get the aluminum oxide one at the below link. They have silicon carbide ones that are even finer grit, (mine's medium) but the silicon carbide ones wear out faster. And the aluminum oxide medium one I got will still do a mirror polish. I know because that's the same medium grit aluminum oxide one I used to polish with once before at a friends machine shop. In fact a quick phone call to my friend is how I got the link.

After using this wheel, I'll follow it up with my fabric buffing wheel with rouge though. Just to get that final finish real SUPER fine jeweler's mirror polish. Where it practically looks like it's bright nickel plated. Then hot tank blue it. I hope to get that real blue Colt type blue, instead of just black. Know someone who still does that kind of true bluing. EPA shut down the major manufacturers from using the chemicals to get that true deep blue. That's why everything is black now instead of blue. But if I can't get it, I'll settle for a mirror bright black so called blue job.



Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies

So once my new ejector rod and deburr/polishing wheel come in, and I get the chance to work on it, then I'll update you on my progress of restoring my S&W 1917 snubby.




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[Bill Akins]

Gyvel wrote:
Quote: Bill Akins wrote:
But 10-96, it is definitely a 1917 sideplate.

Quote: Gyvel wrote:
No, incorrect.

It's definitely an "N" frame sideplate, and that's as far as you can go with it.

As far as I know, no military production 1917 had the logo emblazoned on the sideplate. The sideplate more than likely came from a commercial 5 screw "N" frame gun.

Great! Even better. Thanks for that info. I'd rather have the commercial 5 screw N frame sideplate. But at least I can use it in my N frame 1917 if I ever want to.




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[Bill Akins]

I couldn't stand it. I had to do something on my S&W 1917 snubby while I'm waiting for my deburring/polishing wheel to come in. I decided to take my 1917 snubby apart and give it a good internal cleaning as well as scrub it really hard with some coarse steel wool. I was surprised at how little rust it actually had on it. Results seen below.









The internals looked almost brand new. Nice straw color on the case hardened internal parts as you can see especially well in this pic where I turned on my camera light which shows up the internal parts better.....



Once my new old stock ejector rod arrives to replace my slightly bent one, I could just put it all back together, put a front sight on it, rub some cold blue on it, and call it a day.
But I want something a little nicer and more dignified for this proud old war horse than that. Going to polish this until I can see my teeth clearly in it. Then hot tank blue. Why not. Not that much work and besides....I enjoy it!
Not only do I want to bring this fine old revolver back to life, I want it to dance!

That's all I can do for now until my deburring/polishing wheel arrives. Will update after that.




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[bull bob]

Bill,

I am glad you posted that ebay link. Not so much for ebay, but I am in need of one of those ejector rods also. Numerich has hasn't had one in a year or more. Maybe now I can get my 1917 back into shape. Thanks. And by the way, I like the looks of where you are going with this rebuild.

bull