The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 13, 2007, 10:37 AM   #1
Moloch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Posts: 1,419
Caliber question: .45 and .50

Hello guys, I need some caliber help!

Iam relatively new to muzzle loading shooting and techniques, I want a rifled cap-lock muzzle loader rifle......but there comes the question: Which caliber should I get?

Iam not a recoil junky, but I like high-end powered firearms and the power-feeling, I own a .500S&W 4'' revolver, a .454Casull RSRH and so on, so a muzzleloader with a rather big power spectrum would be great.

My budget is not so big right now and I'll buy a relatively cheap rifle, cal. .45 or .50.
Most fifties are a lot more expensive than their smaller .45 brothers, but is there much power difference between max.50 loads and max .45 loads? (round ball)

Thanksalot!
Moloch is offline  
Old February 13, 2007, 01:59 PM   #2
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
Yes, there is a noticiable difference. The .45 round ball weighs 133 grains while the .50 round ball weighs 177 grains.
If the exterior barrel diameters are the same, the larger bore of the .50 makes for a slightly lighter barrel and more felt recoil.
And the larger caliber tends to lead to using larger powder charges too, so the effects accumulate when all factors are combined.
The .50 should be able to buck the wind better on longer downrange shots, and maybe the balls are just slightly easier to handle and load.
If there's any chance of hunting whitetails, then the .50 is the better choice.
Most people's muzzle loaders are often the largest caliber guns that they own, and if one wants to buy and shoot an affordable .50 caliber gun, then IMO the .50 caliber muzzle loader is the way to go.
I have and enjoy shooting both calibers, but the .50 generally does have a somewhat more satisfying impact on just about any type of target, especially reactive ones. And let me just qualify that by saying if I was going to be shooting closer to maximum, high velocity loads in a lightweight .50 caliber rifle all the time, then that would produce more recoil than I personally prefer because I tend to avoid unnecessary and uncomfortable felt recoil. But because I like to shoot moderate .50 caliber loads at 50 yards, then I appreciate the extra kick that it produces. And being able to tailor the powder charge is one factor that makes muzzle loading so enjoyable, especially with the larger calibers.
While having less recoil is one reason why some shooter's do prefer the .45 caliber for target shooting, the .50 caliber bores seem to suffer less from powder fouling, and may be easier to clean and maintain as well.

Last edited by arcticap; February 13, 2007 at 02:29 PM.
arcticap is offline  
Old February 13, 2007, 06:28 PM   #3
Moloch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Posts: 1,419
Thanks for your time arcticap,

you answered all my questions, so the .50 is the way to go for me for having fun at the range.

Quote:
And being able to tailor the powder charge is one factor that makes muzzle loading so enjoyable, especially with the larger calibers.
I absolutley agree with you, the great thing with muzzle loader firearms is that you can always set up the powder charge from mule-kicking to mild target load, depending on your mood. - Besides the beauty of the guns, smell of the burned powder,....


However, I ever wondered how much velocity you can get with black powder and big caliber muzzle loader, do they even break the sound barrier? This question may sound stupid, but I have really no idea.
Anyone measured the velocity with a chronograph?
Moloch is offline  
Old February 14, 2007, 04:01 AM   #4
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
Yes. There are loading handbooks with loading tables for black powder and muzzle loaders, Lyman comes to mind. But for free you can look at the Pyrodex and 777 loading tables at Hodgdon, just click aound on the loading data links in the left hand column. The longer the barrel, the higher the velocity with black powder too. And some black powder guns have really long barrels!

Which guns have you been considering? There's many inexpensive new and used guns that are a lot of fun. I saw a used .50 sidelock yesterday for $99!

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/

.50 balls with Pyrodex:

490 Spr. RB/.020 patch 1594 1701 1787 1851

.54 balls with Pyrodex:

530 Hdy. RB/.020 patch 1667 1775 1846 1943
arcticap is offline  
Old February 14, 2007, 06:36 AM   #5
Moloch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
.50 balls with Pyrodex:

490 Spr. RB/.020 patch 1594 1701 1787 1851
Wow, I would not have guessed that BP velocity is that high! They're scratching the 2000fp/s mark! Very impressive.

Quote:
Which guns have you been considering? There's many inexpensive new and used guns that are a lot of fun. I saw a used .50 sidelock yesterday for $99!
Yesterday I bought a caplock rifle ''Kentucky'' for 160 € ~ 200$, sadly its not a .50 cal but a .45. My budget is low right now and I couldn't afford a beautiful high quality .50 or .54. We dont have many used muzzle loader here, and the prices are hilarious high. I dont regret my decision, but I will get a .50 for sure; but for starting muzzle loader shooting a .45 should be ok I think.

Quote:
The longer the barrel, the higher the velocity with black powder too. And some black powder guns have really long barrels!
This is it:
I guess the 34'' barrel will launch the bullets with some serious speed to its target.


Most cheap .50 I have found have a short barrel, the long barreled ones were bad quality; so the best thing I could do is buying a good quality .45 with a very long barrel. Iam sure I can get some power out of it with the heavy .45 380grain Minié bullets and hot powder charges.

Greetings from Austria,
Moloch
Moloch is offline  
Old February 14, 2007, 07:26 PM   #6
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
That's a beautiful rifle, and it looks like a Traditions/Ardesa Kentucky which is sold here too.
Researching it right now, I see that it's only imported here in .50 caliber though. It's also the same with the Ardesa Patriot/Traditions Trapper pistol too, we only can buy it here in .50 while the .45 is sold in Europe. Traditions is the brand name of our Ardesa importer.
Good luck with you rifle, it will be a blast to shoot no matter what the caliber is.
Let us know how it shoots and post a picture of a target if you can.

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/es...8Side+Locks%29

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/es...ductCode=R2020
arcticap is offline  
Old February 20, 2007, 03:09 PM   #7
Moloch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
That's a beautiful rifle, and it looks like a Traditions/Ardesa Kentucky which is sold here too.
Researching it right now, I see that it's only imported here in .50 caliber though.
Damn, I live in the wrong country, I would love to have it in .50.
I asked the dealer, but he just said that Ardesa dont sell .50 kentuckies in Europe.
Maybe I can get a replacement barrel in .50 for it, I guess the .50 barrel is skinnier than the .45 so it should fit very well.

Quote:
Good luck with you rifle, it will be a blast to shoot no matter what the caliber is.
Let us know how it shoots and post a picture of a target if you can.
I will post some pictures and my opinion about the rifle, but I still dont have it, delivery takes 2 weeks or even more. Stay tuned!

About Minè bullets, they are longer and heavier than standart round lead ball, how much should I reduce the powder charge to keep the pressure down? Iam pretty sure I cannot shoot Miné bullets weighing 300+ grains with the same max load for round ball.

My max. powder charge load for the .45 will be around 44 grains of FFF powder for lead ball.

Thanks for replies.
Moloch is offline  
Old February 21, 2007, 01:14 AM   #8
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
Maybe the manufacturer's manuals are listing lower maximum loads nowdays, but the typical maximum load is usually between 80-100 grains of ffg. The starting load is around 40-45 grains of ffg, and since that can theoretically be doubled, you have a large margin of safety to experiment with various powder loads.
I wouldn't want to shoot too much powder with that big heavy bullet either, and depending on the barrel twist rate, it might not stabilize well and will produce some recoil too. What is the twist rate of the Kentucky .45? The .50 caliber Kentucky has a 1 in 66" twist.
There are other lighter and smaller 180 - 250 grain conical bullets to try also.
I would probably begin by shooting the same powder load with the minie if the recoil wasn't too bad, but it still might not shoot to the same point of aim at 50 yards because it's a lot heavier bullet.

Last edited by arcticap; February 21, 2007 at 12:46 PM.
arcticap is offline  
Old February 21, 2007, 02:41 AM   #9
Moloch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
Maybe the manufacturer's manuals are listing lower maximum loads nowdays, but the typical maximum load is usually between 80-100 grains of ffg. The starting load is around 40-45 grains of ffg, and since that can theoretically be doubled, you have a large margin of safety to experiment with various powder loads.

The books recomments only a max. 44-45 grains for a .45 rifle! The formula says: Per millimeter (0,039 inches) 0,25 grams (3,8 grain) of BP.
The book says thats the max!
I can really double the powder charge and still be save?

Quote:
I wouldn't want to shoot too much powder with that big heavy bullet either, and depending on the barrel twist rate, it might not stabilize well and will produce some recoil too. What is the twist rate of the Kentucky .45? The .50 caliber Kentucky has a 1 in 66" twist.
I dont know the twist rate, I think I'll have to try some of the lighter bullets with a low powder charge. Lets see how it works. 180 grain seems to be a good choice, the round lead ball should be around 140 grains so I can use a slightly reduced load for beginning with the Miné bullets.

Thanks so much for your help, I know how hard it is to help a beginner!
Moloch is offline  
Old February 21, 2007, 01:00 PM   #10
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
Some companies are recommending an extremely low maximum recommended powder charge. Most experienced shooters are aware of it, so they basically just ignore it. The Lymans Plains pistol has a low maximum recommended load like this too. This is for legal reasons, because there's been litigation (lawsuits) over some accidents in the past for whatever reasons, (barrel recalls, defects, injuries, etc...). The proofing of these Spanish barrels may not be high enough or thorough enough with every gun to let the factory recommend these higher loads without additional legal liability here, so to avoid as many lawsuits as possible they protect themselves in this way. But in fact, these barrels are made of modern steel which is strong enough to handle double the artifically low factory recommendations, and are much stronger than the originals from the 1800's. Even if the Spanish barrels were able to handle triple the "max" powder load, why would any company recommend that when it only invites a lawsuit? They know that sometimes, people make mistakes and drop 2 loads of powder into the barrel by mistake, so they are being careful to protect their company from any blame. Many American made barrels often do not have any proof marks at all because the barrel makers know the strength of the steel that they are using and have confidence in it.
There have been discussions about the safety of Spanish guns here before, and some people just don't want to buy any Spanish guns. But most people including myself think that they are a good value and very safe.

Last edited by arcticap; February 21, 2007 at 03:03 PM.
arcticap is offline  
Old February 24, 2007, 12:11 AM   #11
Icy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2007
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 13
Quote:
I dont know the twist rate
The twist rate is 1 in 66"

Quote:
The Lymans Plains pistol has a low maximum recommended load like this too. This is for legal reasons, because there's been litigation (lawsuits) over some accidents in the past for whatever reasons, (barrel recalls, defects, injuries, etc...). The proofing of these Spanish barrels may not be high enough or thorough enough with every gun .....
The producer of Lyman Plains pistols is Investarm, Italy. I just purchased one in .45 cal. 11 hours ago . Couldn't sleep all night! and ordered Investarm Great Plains Hawken rifle, 32" BBL, .45 cal, too.

Oh yes and read this. Just for second opinion.

Moloch we should meet once and arcticap is welcome to join us, too
__________________
The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his
George S. Patton

Last edited by Icy; February 25, 2007 at 10:21 AM.
Icy is offline  
Old February 24, 2007, 09:28 PM   #12
Moloch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
The producer of Lyman Plains pistols is Investarm, Italy. I just purchased one in .45 cal. 11 hours ago . Couldn't sleep all night! and ordered Investarm Great Plain Hawken rifle, 32" BBL, .45 cal, too.
Hello, someone from europe, thats very rare here!
You are exactely doing what Iam doing when I cant sleep, ordering firearms and ammo from the internet. Very relaxing.

Quote:
Oh yes and read this. Just for second opinion.
Thanks for the link, I found lots of very interesting datas, especially the ''Muzzleloading Caliber Hype: .45 versus .50' site was very interesting!

Cant wait to get my rifle, I hope it will arrive next week, but I am not too sure about that. Cant wait to ''launch'' round ball bullets with 60 or even 75 grains of FF powder behind them out of my rifle.

Quote:
Moloch we should meet once and arcticap is welcome to join us, too
I wish that would be possible!
Moloch is offline  
Old February 25, 2007, 12:30 AM   #13
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
Quote:
Moloch we should meet once and arcticap is welcome to join us, too
Thanks for the invitation you guys, I wish that I could, but I'll just have to send along some pictures of smoking guns instead!
arcticap is offline  
Old February 25, 2007, 03:22 AM   #14
Icy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2007
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 13
Quote:
Hello, someone from Europe, thats very rare here!
We are rare but then again we are more ...

Quote:
Thanks for the invitation you guys, I wish that I could, but I'll just have to send along some pictures of smoking guns instead!
Keep the pictures and send youself!

Oh and pics of my two new babies! One at home and the other is on the way home!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg lyman-gpr-right-percussion_1.jpg (8.5 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg lyman-gpp-54_1.jpg (14.1 KB, 49 views)
__________________
The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his
George S. Patton
Icy is offline  
Old February 25, 2007, 12:25 PM   #15
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
Check out marcseatac's new .54 GPR and his sighting in method for the new rifle. They are great shooters!


http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232773

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237757

His 50 yard target:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h8...c/PDRM0278.jpg
arcticap is offline  
Old March 6, 2007, 04:22 PM   #16
Moloch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Posts: 1,419
Just have a short question, yesterday I bought a spanish and rather cheap .45 percussion pistol with a 5 '' barrel (great deal!), I think its a Kentucky model from Traditions.
I am nut sure how much of FFF powder I can use to make a decent load; at the range I used 15 grain of FFF powder but I've got high and low hits and It felt very underpowered. Powered up the load to 25 grain of FFF, that load made a nice sound and was very accurate, but I am not sure if the pistol will hold together with this rather hard load. Recoil was like a medium .45 colt and the fireball at the muzzle was very impressive.

BTW, I send the Kentucky rifle back to the dealer, the stock had a big scratch in it and other parts looked damaged too. Today I ordered the Kentucky model form Armi Sport/Kimar*, its more expensive then the same model from Ardesa/Traditions (320 $) but its a .50 cal. Cant wait to get it.


* Link http://www.armisport.com/eng/dettagl...ttoFamiglia=11
Moloch is offline  
Old March 6, 2007, 04:30 PM   #17
marcseatac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2006
Posts: 225
Here's my 50 yd target!

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h8...c/PDRM0278.jpg
marcseatac is offline  
Old March 6, 2007, 05:22 PM   #18
Steve499
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 533
That target looks like one of my 15 yard ones!

Steve
Steve499 is offline  
Old March 7, 2007, 12:44 AM   #19
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
Congratulations on finding the .50 Moloch! The walnut stock looks great and will be stronger too.
I've admired pictures of these Armi Sport rifles, but not very many are imported here and I've never examined one. So you're going to have to tell us all about it in a range report.
Hang in there!

Last edited by arcticap; March 8, 2007 at 01:21 AM.
arcticap is offline  
Old March 7, 2007, 10:28 AM   #20
Double J
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2007
Location: So. Illinois
Posts: 547
The .45 pictured is exactly the same rifle as CVA sold as a kit in 1976. Now it's sold by Tradition's, maybe other names. Mine has the 1:66 twist. Loaded down it's fine for small game. I've taken many big Illinois whitetail deer useing 70 grains FFFG, Poly-Patch and round ball. Consider useing a synthetic ramrod as the old originals tend to snap. Nice rifle.
Double J is offline  
Old March 7, 2007, 03:07 PM   #21
Icy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2007
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 13
Quote:
Moloch said: Cant wait to get my rifle, I hope it will arrive next week, but I am not too sure about that.
Weeeeellll anything new with your rifle? My merchant notify me that my shipment should arrive at the end of the next week.
__________________
The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his
George S. Patton
Icy is offline  
Old March 7, 2007, 04:06 PM   #22
Moloch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
. I've taken many big Illinois whitetail deer useing 70 grains FFFG, Poly-Patch and round ball. Consider useing a synthetic ramrod as the old originals tend to snap. Nice rifle.
Funny, I never thought to use round ball for hunting, sectional density must be bad with a .45 round ball weighing ~ 140 grains. How far did the ball penetrate?

Quote:
Weeeeellll anything new with your rifle? My merchant notify me that my shipment should arrive at the end of the next week.
Yeah got it two days ago but stock had some bad scratches and I did not like the two piece stock, the stock under the barrel was fixed with only two pins! Send it back and ordered the same rifle ( but its more expensive) from Armi Sport in cal. 50 instead .45, quality seems to be better and its a one-piece stock. There is also a bunch of aftermarket pieces for it.

Quote:
Consider useing a synthetic ramrod as the old originals tend to snap. Nice rifle
I made a ramrod out of aluminium and it works very well, with a nice black finish it fits great under the barrel of my pistol. I destroyed the original wodden ramrod, two hits with the hammer and it cracked.:barf:
Moloch is offline  
Old March 8, 2007, 01:31 AM   #23
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 3,166
Many .45 ball hunters say that it will pass through both lungs if properly hit with a broadside shot. But there isn't as much room for error if the shot is off or not taken at full broadside, then there might not be an exit hole.
In many of our southern states, mature deer often run smaller in size than in the north, and the .45 caliber ball is probably more popular for deer hunting.
arcticap is offline  
Old March 8, 2007, 02:04 AM   #24
Icy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2007
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 13
Quote:
Moloch said: Send it back and ordered the same rifle ( but its more expensive) from Armi Sport in cal. 50 instead
And the price is better than for my Lyman GP rifle. I believe the end price will be 465€ about. From other threads I learned that she is not exactly pc, but here in Slovenia noone will notice that. I am also gathering information on pc clothing and I guess I find some paterns at Track Of The Wolf.

jurij
__________________
The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his
George S. Patton
Icy is offline  
Old March 8, 2007, 09:34 AM   #25
Steve499
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 533
I don't think there's any guarantee of exit wounds with round balls of the normal sizes commonly used for hunting. It depends largely on whether bone is hit, I think, splinters from which are pushed ahead of the ball and help penetrate the off side hide. I once shot a medium sized deer with a .570 patched round ball, 65 grains of FF, from my 1861 Springfield, at only 25 yards or so. The ball went between ribs on both sides of the animal and was caught just under the hide on the other side. When I skinned the deer, there was an area about the size of a dinner plate around the ball where it had pulled the hide away from the ribcage. The elasticity of the hide apparently acted like a trampoline on the ball and caught it. Had there been some sharp bone ahead of it, I imagine the hide would have been cut enough to allow penetration.

Larger powder charges, of course, increase the likelihood of complete penetration.

Steve
Steve499 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11175 seconds with 9 queries