What Goes On An HD Shotgun? - Page 3

MagSxS · January 6, 2011, 08:00 PM

ripnbst:
"An overwhelming majority of home invasions are one or two people, no more. The criminals that need to be shot multiple times due to being hopped up on drugs are almost always alone. 5 guys don't get high together and break into homes. Its one junkie looking for money for more drugs. What I am getting at is the need for more shells than a standard tube mag is almost non-existent. If you really want piece of mind get the extended tube but the shell carrier is just adding weight to what you are holding."

Agreed. However, I have heard of home invasions where there are more than 2 people. On another forum I'm on some people were talking about one which included 3 people,
and here's an article in which there are 4 suspects!!
This is from today!
http://www.torontosun.com/news/toron.../16790196.html

However, like you said, even with that many, what's the likelihood that they would stay and fight even 1 or 2 of them have been shot?

edit: here's another news story from today. 2 home invaders, 1 shot, 1 fled.
http://www.ksat.com/news/26392148/detail.html

**Mike Irwin** · January 6, 2011, 09:38 PM

Well, on my HD gun I have:

Doppler Radar.

Side scanning sonar

Kliege and Flood lights in white, red, and infra red.

Two solar panels.

Four lunar panels (Moon doesn't give off as much energy, so you need more)

A spare Transportation Safety backscatter scanner

And a Boscalone espresso machine. I did go non traditional and get the electric pump model.

OK, so I don't have any of that on my home shotgun.

In fact, other than an elastic butt cuff that holds 5 spare rounds of 00 buckshot, I dont' have squat on my HD shotgun, and I never will.

It's got a wood stock and forearm, an 18.5" barrel with a standard bead, and a 4-round standard length magazine tube.

I don't really truck with all the BOPOS (bolt on pieces of schmidt) that I see so often on these guns.

And far too often, the people I see with these guns have substituted hype and modular parts for actual competency.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm NOT casting aspersions on anyone here -- I'm only recounting what I've observed at indoor and outdoor ranges in Pennsylvania and Virginia over the last 25 or so years.

But I really think that a LOT of people would be better served by taking the money they spent on accessories and spending it on a basic defensive shotgun handling course.

Regarding number of home invaders...

I can't remember whether it was here, or whether it was at the old Compuserve Firearms Forum pre April 2000 (I think it was there) but we had a member who killed three home invaders with his Remington or Mossberg duck hunting gun and duck loads.

IIRC, they broke in in the middle of the night. He grabbed his shotgun, took a good barricade position at the top of the stairs between them and his family, and shouted out that the police were on the way and they should get the hell out.

They made the mistake of firing a couple shots up the stairs and then charging, and he picked off all three of them as they cleared the top of the steps.

A good cyberbuddy of mine, Mac Scott, one of the principals in the old Scott & McDougal gunsmithing firm on Cotai, California, once referred to the shotgun as (paraphrase) "the most devastating firearm most of us will ever have access to, or will ever need."

He's also the one who first used BOPOS in reference to the amazing amount of stuff he was asked to hang on otherwise perfectly servicable shotguns, stuff that he felt detracted immensely from their functionality, and which he apparently felt too many people used as substitutions for good techniques and "less can be a lot more" outlook.

His writings on the subject of shotguns at the old Compuserve Firearms Forum impressed me mightily, and made me look at the humble home defense gun in a very different light.

tet4 · January 6, 2011, 09:59 PM

The way I address the ID/light issue is with plug in led nightlight/emergency lights all over the house. This way, even if the power is off, I can still around inside the home, and they are bright enough to be able to know if it's someone you want in the house or not.

Truthfully, this is just a side benefit. I like the night light set up because when I get up at night I don't have to turn on any lights or get a flash light, etc. It's useful on a daily basis, and useful in an emergency.

So, I do that and keep the firearms as simple as possible.

markj · January 7, 2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

One of the cats from a night vision camera

Demon spawn?

mine dont sit so still, they run around chasing the mice that want to eat my cow feed.

I like the window over my kitchen sink, on most nights it lites up the entire area, my hallway to the bedrooms are right at it so anyone coming for us is lit up in the hallway by natural lite. That and the clappers

give me the upper hand. Just look at yer place and ask yerself what can I do to make it easier for me to get around in the dark and not help someone that isnt supposed to be here and go for it.

Them little green nite lites that plug into a wall socket give off a wierd green lite but I can see by it.

jokester_143 · January 7, 2011, 05:38 PM

I've read so many of these threads, as I've been lurking the forum for sometime before I actually joined awhile ago... It all boils down to Competency and a Light.

Nnobby45 · January 7, 2011, 07:12 PM

Quote:

However, like you said, even with that many, what's the likelihood that they would stay and fight even 1 or 2 of them have been shot?

Glad you have it all figured out regarding how things will tanspire. Guess there's no chance that, in the confusion of gunfire, they won't all know just were the exit is. Or not be willing to show you their back when they hit the door.

In which case they might stand and fight.

ripnbst · January 7, 2011, 07:18 PM

^They all got in smart guy, I'm sure they can find their way out...

If I was in unfamiliar surroundings and being shot at just about the only thing I'd remember is how to get out. If they aren't showing you their back then what are they doing in the midst of all this gunfire? Running backwards falling over everything in this unfamiliar area? Slowly creeping backwards with their hands in the air? Great, goal achieved. At this point they might listen to you as their friends bleed out in your living room. Tell them to get down and lay there til Police come before you put a hole in them big enough to put Paris Hilton's dog in.

It all goes back to my big question, exactly how big is the house you live in? Do you have maps in each wing like most malls? Do you live in what most would classify as a compound? Be realistic. Even some of the biggest houses I've been in, and believe me I've been in some marvelous homes, I could find my way to the door in a hurry.

TheKlawMan · January 7, 2011, 08:50 PM

Not having an LEO experience, forgive me if I am talking through the back end, but it seems much of the debate over how to equip a home defense shotgun turns on how the bad guy(s) will react. Will they beat feet to the door when challenged with a 12 gauge or will they charge even as the first is knocked down with a hole in his chest. I would think that may depend on how rationally they react which may turn on their ingestion of drugs. A cool and calm professional cat burglar may react quite differently that an amateur crazed on pcp?

As for how much ammo to carry, and if it is true that statisticly a home invasion is perpetrated by one or two persons, I suppose one might wish to plan for the anomolous party of Mansons. Personally, I have yet to make my mind up on a side saddle as I lean to keeping things simple so as not to add weight or things to catch on whatever.

Nnobby45 · January 7, 2011, 11:58 PM

Quote:

^They all got in smart guy, I'm sure they can find their way out...

^ Not being smart. Sneaking in is one thing. Leaving under a hail of gunfire all at once is something else. Might have been a window they came through--one at a time. When things start to happen, the home owner could end up between them and a back window they entered from. Lot's of other possibility, but in any event, folks (even armed ones) have been killed by intruders who, for whatever reason, didn't head for the exit "they can find there way out" of.

soundhd · January 9, 2011, 07:14 AM

I would say (if you plan on doing any sort of practice shooting at the range) get a recoil reducing stock and a better forend (lost of them out there now...Kicklite, Knoxx, etc....and pretty inexpensive)......if you plan on using the weapon for home defense inside the home I suggest finding a "legal" way to shorten it.......even the short Tactical shotguns have a hard time working around inside a home (that's what my 45 auto is for).....but recently Taurus has come out with revolvers that use 410 shot shells.......seems like those would work really nice in a "inside" the home "situation".........just food for thought..........

January 6, 2011, 09:38 PM	#52
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Well, on my HD gun I have: Doppler Radar. Side scanning sonar Kliege and Flood lights in white, red, and infra red. Two solar panels. Four lunar panels (Moon doesn't give off as much energy, so you need more) A spare Transportation Safety backscatter scanner And a Boscalone espresso machine. I did go non traditional and get the electric pump model. OK, so I don't have any of that on my home shotgun. In fact, other than an elastic butt cuff that holds 5 spare rounds of 00 buckshot, I dont' have squat on my HD shotgun, and I never will. It's got a wood stock and forearm, an 18.5" barrel with a standard bead, and a 4-round standard length magazine tube. I don't really truck with all the BOPOS (bolt on pieces of schmidt) that I see so often on these guns. And far too often, the people I see with these guns have substituted hype and modular parts for actual competency. Please don't get me wrong. I'm NOT casting aspersions on anyone here -- I'm only recounting what I've observed at indoor and outdoor ranges in Pennsylvania and Virginia over the last 25 or so years. But I really think that a LOT of people would be better served by taking the money they spent on accessories and spending it on a basic defensive shotgun handling course. Regarding number of home invaders... I can't remember whether it was here, or whether it was at the old Compuserve Firearms Forum pre April 2000 (I think it was there) but we had a member who killed three home invaders with his Remington or Mossberg duck hunting gun and duck loads. IIRC, they broke in in the middle of the night. He grabbed his shotgun, took a good barricade position at the top of the stairs between them and his family, and shouted out that the police were on the way and they should get the hell out. They made the mistake of firing a couple shots up the stairs and then charging, and he picked off all three of them as they cleared the top of the steps. A good cyberbuddy of mine, Mac Scott, one of the principals in the old Scott & McDougal gunsmithing firm on Cotai, California, once referred to the shotgun as (paraphrase) "the most devastating firearm most of us will ever have access to, or will ever need." He's also the one who first used BOPOS in reference to the amazing amount of stuff he was asked to hang on otherwise perfectly servicable shotguns, stuff that he felt detracted immensely from their functionality, and which he apparently felt too many people used as substitutions for good techniques and "less can be a lot more" outlook. His writings on the subject of shotguns at the old Compuserve Firearms Forum impressed me mightily, and made me look at the humble home defense gun in a very different light. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 7, 2011, 05:38 PM	#55
jokester_143 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2010 Location: Montana Posts: 135	I've read so many of these threads, as I've been lurking the forum for sometime before I actually joined awhile ago... It all boils down to Competency and a Light. __________________ M&P 15, XD:M .40cal, Mossberg 500 with Knox tactical stock and now also a XD:M 3.8 in .40cal...

January 7, 2011, 07:18 PM	#57
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	^They all got in smart guy, I'm sure they can find their way out... If I was in unfamiliar surroundings and being shot at just about the only thing I'd remember is how to get out. If they aren't showing you their back then what are they doing in the midst of all this gunfire? Running backwards falling over everything in this unfamiliar area? Slowly creeping backwards with their hands in the air? Great, goal achieved. At this point they might listen to you as their friends bleed out in your living room. Tell them to get down and lay there til Police come before you put a hole in them big enough to put Paris Hilton's dog in. It all goes back to my big question, exactly how big is the house you live in? Do you have maps in each wing like most malls? Do you live in what most would classify as a compound? Be realistic. Even some of the biggest houses I've been in, and believe me I've been in some marvelous homes, I could find my way to the door in a hurry. Last edited by ripnbst; January 7, 2011 at 07:35 PM.

January 6, 2011, 08:00 PM	#51
MagSxS Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Location: AZ Posts: 48	ripnbst: "An overwhelming majority of home invasions are one or two people, no more. The criminals that need to be shot multiple times due to being hopped up on drugs are almost always alone. 5 guys don't get high together and break into homes. Its one junkie looking for money for more drugs. What I am getting at is the need for more shells than a standard tube mag is almost non-existent. If you really want piece of mind get the extended tube but the shell carrier is just adding weight to what you are holding." Agreed. However, I have heard of home invasions where there are more than 2 people. On another forum I'm on some people were talking about one which included 3 people, and here's an article in which there are 4 suspects!! This is from today! http://www.torontosun.com/news/toron.../16790196.html However, like you said, even with that many, what's the likelihood that they would stay and fight even 1 or 2 of them have been shot? edit: here's another news story from today. 2 home invaders, 1 shot, 1 fled. http://www.ksat.com/news/26392148/detail.html

January 6, 2011, 09:59 PM	#53
tet4 Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2009 Posts: 232	The way I address the ID/light issue is with plug in led nightlight/emergency lights all over the house. This way, even if the power is off, I can still around inside the home, and they are bright enough to be able to know if it's someone you want in the house or not. Truthfully, this is just a side benefit. I like the night light set up because when I get up at night I don't have to turn on any lights or get a flash light, etc. It's useful on a daily basis, and useful in an emergency. So, I do that and keep the firearms as simple as possible.

January 7, 2011, 08:50 PM	#58
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Not having an LEO experience, forgive me if I am talking through the back end, but it seems much of the debate over how to equip a home defense shotgun turns on how the bad guy(s) will react. Will they beat feet to the door when challenged with a 12 gauge or will they charge even as the first is knocked down with a hole in his chest. I would think that may depend on how rationally they react which may turn on their ingestion of drugs. A cool and calm professional cat burglar may react quite differently that an amateur crazed on pcp? As for how much ammo to carry, and if it is true that statisticly a home invasion is perpetrated by one or two persons, I suppose one might wish to plan for the anomolous party of Mansons. Personally, I have yet to make my mind up on a side saddle as I lean to keeping things simple so as not to add weight or things to catch on whatever.

January 9, 2011, 07:14 AM	#60
soundhd Junior Member Join Date: November 20, 2010 Location: Ann Arbor Michigan Posts: 8	I would say (if you plan on doing any sort of practice shooting at the range) get a recoil reducing stock and a better forend (lost of them out there now...Kicklite, Knoxx, etc....and pretty inexpensive)......if you plan on using the weapon for home defense inside the home I suggest finding a "legal" way to shorten it.......even the short Tactical shotguns have a hard time working around inside a home (that's what my 45 auto is for).....but recently Taurus has come out with revolvers that use 410 shot shells.......seems like those would work really nice in a "inside" the home "situation".........just food for thought..........