Altering the 30-30 case fot the TSX

Yosemite Steve · January 14, 2018, 07:54 PM

In farting around with the 150 gr. TSX FP for use in my model 94 I have come up with a problem. In order to crimp into a cannelure a person has to use the one closest to the tip to keep the bullet from being too long. If you use the next cannelure it makes the cartridge too long to chamber from the magazine. Because this bullet is so long, being solid copper, seating it to the depth to crimp into the last cannelure gives a COL of 2.470. This consumes a vast amount of case volume.

I decided to shorten the neck of the case to allow crimping into the second cannelure. Originally I trimmed the case to 1.995 as you will see int the image. Then I was able to only trim it to 2.005. After crimping it put the COL at 2.545. The neck is .015 shorter but it increased the case volume by 10%, allowing for more powder volume.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kpwh4fxusm...sized.jpg?dl=0

I am broke so I tried some IMR 4064, but was unable to get much performance from it as it likes higher pressures. I plan to buy some Tac and work up loads with this altered case.

Any thoughts?

3Crows · January 14, 2018, 10:06 PM

Why should you have to shorten the case? I see at least two commercial loads using the Barnes bullet, the one I think of is not the Remington Hog Hammer? I do not notice short cases on either. Maybe I am confused.

I know I plan to load the Barnes TSX bullet for my 30-30 using Lever Revolution propellant.

Just bought some but not arrived yet.

Rifletom · January 14, 2018, 10:27 PM

No need to shorten the case. I've loaded the 150 TSX FN for my Mod 94. Seat to required length and crimp. I use the Lee "Factory Crimp Die" and have had no problems at all.
IMR4064 isn't going to give you the best results in the 30-30. Try Win 748.
Didn't we discuss this on here?

Yosemite Steve · January 14, 2018, 10:51 PM

Yes. We did. I was experimenting. I think the added volume will be of benefit.

Rifletom · January 14, 2018, 11:06 PM

Hmm. Let us know how the experiment turns out. But, get some 748 when you can.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · January 15, 2018, 12:46 AM

4064 isn't my first choice in powders. But it will work for a deer taking. A little slower in speed your cartridge would be due to its bullets depth when correctly reloaded. So its quite likely you'll have to shoot the animal at least twice to see a "down for the count" bushwhacking observation.
Not a big deal for a old tired sharpshooter. Or for a young fellow who doesn't suffer with Buck Fever at the first site of a deer scat on the trail to his deer roosting perch. Anywho. My advice
Cut your brass to Minimum tolerance reduced your powder charge to accommodate its bullet.
Bullet seating to a measurement within OAL's suggested..
BTW: Consider a jug of Accurate- 2230 for your 30-30 needs. i.e. the best I've found & tested for accuracy/speed & reliability shot after shot in my 94 s. That's all I use in all four of my rifles.
Pre- 64 models of 94s._ i.e. 30-Wcf__32 Special__32-40 Win__25-35 Win.
Happy Reloading.

ammo.crafter · January 15, 2018, 01:01 AM

Try Hodgdon H335 powder.
Never found a need to trim back 30-30 for the TTSX.

Reload a batch using 1st cannelure and 2nd cannelure and see which works better for you.

jmr40 · January 15, 2018, 07:58 AM

Those aren't cannelures. Just ignore them and seat the bullet normally.

Yosemite Steve · January 15, 2018, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Those aren't cannelures. Just ignore them and seat the bullet normally.

The reason that Barnes gives the COL it does is to seat the bullet at that last cannelure. The resulting COL is 2.470. SAMMI gives a max COL of 2.550 but seating a bullet there takes us out of the groove of the cannelure. Every instruction I have read emphasizes the importance of cannelure crimping with a tube fed 30-30. By doing what I did I gained 10% usable case volume to allow for more powder and a higher potential velocity while keeping the case mouth firmly crimped on the leading edge of a groove in the bullet. Maybe it isn't a cannelure but that's the purpose it's serving in this instance.

Quote:

Try Hodgdon H335 powder.

Quote:

Consider a jug of Accurate- 2230 for your 30-30 needs

Quote:

But, get some 748 when you can.

Thanks for the powder recommendations. I would like to try several powders. Barnes lists Tac as the most accurate. LeverRevolution is supposed to be really fast. 748 is hands down the most popular. I am going for accuracy, but speed is also important with this bullet for it to open up correctly. The 4064 was indeed a waste of powder but also taught me some things and served it's purpose for now.

Quote:

Reload a batch using 1st cannelure and 2nd cannelure and see which works better for you.

I plan to do exactly that.

**Unclenick** · January 15, 2018, 01:49 PM

The bullet is 1.082" long. If I assume a case with 46 grains of water overflow capacity at 2.039" length, the seating depth times the bullet cross-sectional area will be the amount to subtract from the overflow capacity to get real powder space capacity.

Seating Depth = case length + bullet length - COL

We then have:

2.039 in + 1.082 in - 2.470 in = 0.651 in (seating depth subtracting from case capacity)

2.039 in + 1.082 in - 2.545 in = 0.576 in (seating depth subtracting from case capacity)

A .308 bullet has a cross-sectional area of 0.0745 in².

0.0745 in² × 0.651 in = 0.0485 in³ … 0.0485 in³ × 16.387 in³/cm³ = 12.26 grains water capacity.

0.0745 in² × 0.576 in = 0.0429 in³ … 0.0429 in³ × 16.387 in³/cm³ = 10.85 grains water capacity.

From the case capacity to get powder space:

46 grs - 12.26 grs = 33.74 grains case water capacity with bullet seated to 2.470 in COL

46 grs - 10.85 grs = 35.15 grains case water capacity with bullet seated to 2.545 in COL

35.15 grs / 33.74 grs = 4.18% increase in powder capacity.

Yosemite Steve · January 15, 2018, 02:54 PM

Unclenick, thanks for the correction. I plugged a number wrong using quickload. I just rechecked and come up with 4.21% using the same program. Oops!

Still, considering the load data Barnes gives(http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2...Winchester.pdf), we can add roughly 1.4 grains of powder depending on what we choose. My guess is potentially 100fps gain in velocity. Almost all of their max loads are compressed. I highly doubt they are coming anywhere near max pressure. So wouldn't more case volume have to be better?

**Unclenick** · January 15, 2018, 06:29 PM

Probably not. But this is what load workups are for: to establish the fact to a certainty. It's just two additional rounds. Not enough cost that it isn't a worthwhile measure.

January 14, 2018, 07:54 PM	#1
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	Altering the 30-30 case fot the TSX In farting around with the 150 gr. TSX FP for use in my model 94 I have come up with a problem. In order to crimp into a cannelure a person has to use the one closest to the tip to keep the bullet from being too long. If you use the next cannelure it makes the cartridge too long to chamber from the magazine. Because this bullet is so long, being solid copper, seating it to the depth to crimp into the last cannelure gives a COL of 2.470. This consumes a vast amount of case volume. I decided to shorten the neck of the case to allow crimping into the second cannelure. Originally I trimmed the case to 1.995 as you will see int the image. Then I was able to only trim it to 2.005. After crimping it put the COL at 2.545. The neck is .015 shorter but it increased the case volume by 10%, allowing for more powder volume. https://www.dropbox.com/s/kpwh4fxusm...sized.jpg?dl=0 I am broke so I tried some IMR 4064, but was unable to get much performance from it as it likes higher pressures. I plan to buy some Tac and work up loads with this altered case. Any thoughts?

January 15, 2018, 01:01 AM	#7
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	30-30 Try Hodgdon H335 powder. Never found a need to trim back 30-30 for the TTSX. Reload a batch using 1st cannelure and 2nd cannelure and see which works better for you. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

January 15, 2018, 07:58 AM	#8
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,810	Those aren't cannelures. Just ignore them and seat the bullet normally. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

January 15, 2018, 01:49 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The bullet is 1.082" long. If I assume a case with 46 grains of water overflow capacity at 2.039" length, the seating depth times the bullet cross-sectional area will be the amount to subtract from the overflow capacity to get real powder space capacity. Seating Depth = case length + bullet length - COL We then have: 2.039 in + 1.082 in - 2.470 in = 0.651 in (seating depth subtracting from case capacity) 2.039 in + 1.082 in - 2.545 in = 0.576 in (seating depth subtracting from case capacity) A .308 bullet has a cross-sectional area of 0.0745 in². 0.0745 in² × 0.651 in = 0.0485 in³ … 0.0485 in³ × 16.387 in³/cm³ = 12.26 grains water capacity. 0.0745 in² × 0.576 in = 0.0429 in³ … 0.0429 in³ × 16.387 in³/cm³ = 10.85 grains water capacity. From the case capacity to get powder space: 46 grs - 12.26 grs = 33.74 grains case water capacity with bullet seated to 2.470 in COL 46 grs - 10.85 grs = 35.15 grains case water capacity with bullet seated to 2.545 in COL 35.15 grs / 33.74 grs = 4.18% increase in powder capacity. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 15, 2018, 06:29 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Probably not. But this is what load workups are for: to establish the fact to a certainty. It's just two additional rounds. Not enough cost that it isn't a worthwhile measure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 14, 2018, 10:06 PM	#2
3Crows Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2017 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 220	Why should you have to shorten the case? I see at least two commercial loads using the Barnes bullet, the one I think of is not the Remington Hog Hammer? I do not notice short cases on either. Maybe I am confused. I know I plan to load the Barnes TSX bullet for my 30-30 using Lever Revolution propellant. Just bought some but not arrived yet.

January 14, 2018, 10:27 PM	#3
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 789	No need to shorten the case. I've loaded the 150 TSX FN for my Mod 94. Seat to required length and crimp. I use the Lee "Factory Crimp Die" and have had no problems at all. IMR4064 isn't going to give you the best results in the 30-30. Try Win 748. Didn't we discuss this on here?

January 14, 2018, 10:51 PM	#4
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	Yes. We did. I was experimenting. I think the added volume will be of benefit.

January 14, 2018, 11:06 PM	#5
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 789	Hmm. Let us know how the experiment turns out. But, get some 748 when you can.

January 15, 2018, 12:46 AM	#6
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	4064 isn't my first choice in powders. But it will work for a deer taking. A little slower in speed your cartridge would be due to its bullets depth when correctly reloaded. So its quite likely you'll have to shoot the animal at least twice to see a "down for the count" bushwhacking observation. Not a big deal for a old tired sharpshooter. Or for a young fellow who doesn't suffer with Buck Fever at the first site of a deer scat on the trail to his deer roosting perch. Anywho. My advice Cut your brass to Minimum tolerance reduced your powder charge to accommodate its bullet. Bullet seating to a measurement within OAL's suggested.. BTW: Consider a jug of Accurate- 2230 for your 30-30 needs. i.e. the best I've found & tested for accuracy/speed & reliability shot after shot in my 94 s. That's all I use in all four of my rifles. Pre- 64 models of 94s._ i.e. 30-Wcf__32 Special__32-40 Win__25-35 Win. Happy Reloading.

January 15, 2018, 02:54 PM	#11
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	Unclenick, thanks for the correction. I plugged a number wrong using quickload. I just rechecked and come up with 4.21% using the same program. Oops! Still, considering the load data Barnes gives(http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2...Winchester.pdf), we can add roughly 1.4 grains of powder depending on what we choose. My guess is potentially 100fps gain in velocity. Almost all of their max loads are compressed. I highly doubt they are coming anywhere near max pressure. So wouldn't more case volume have to be better?