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Old November 3, 2014, 01:16 PM   #1
Mike Irwin
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Lee Straight Pull Blow Up

Pulled this link from a facebook friend.

http://imgur.com/a/Ywvmw

I can't see the pictures, but the one on the FB page looks like it blew right at the barrel ring.

The commentary says that the guy was using reformed .30-40 Krag cases. I didn't see any information on what kind of loads/bullets he was using.
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Old November 3, 2014, 01:43 PM   #2
Jim Watson
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Looks like the casehead blew out into the extractor cut.
The primer pocket looks greatly enlarged.

There is a lot of brass moved around and cut off to make 6mm Lee out of .30-40 Krag, that might be a contributor, but I would bet on a wrong load.
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Old November 3, 2014, 03:25 PM   #3
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It is quite a few years back, but there was an accident near Allentown PA when I lived near there. The shooter was killed at the range and I believe he was using a rifle similar to that one. I guess if I really started to dig I could find the article.
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Old November 3, 2014, 03:34 PM   #4
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I found a breakdown of that incident and linked it in the recent thread we had on the Lee Navy.

Combination of errors on the owner's part that unfortunately talked in his death.
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Old November 3, 2014, 03:40 PM   #5
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Here's the link to the breakdown:

https://www.msgo.com/threads/a-firea...-friend.22036/
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Old November 3, 2014, 03:43 PM   #6
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Is it just a trick of the light, or does that steel in the blown part of the receiver ring look frosted and crystalized as all hell?
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Old November 3, 2014, 05:01 PM   #7
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Is it just a trick of the light, or does that steel in the blown part of the receiver ring look frosted and crystalized as all hell?

It does to me, in fact to me it looks like cast iron that has given away.

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Old November 3, 2014, 07:56 PM   #8
James K
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"The case gave-way at the extractor groove."

A hard lesson in not making one case from another without careful study. In this situation, the .30-40 case has had its rim cut off and an extractor groove cut into the case ahead of the rim. That cut away metal at a very critical part of the case, seriously weakening it, with the very predictable results we see.

Too bad that a nice old rifle was ruined, but good than no-one was killed or seriously injured.

Edited to add: An easy way to see if that is the situation is to section that case that did not let go. If he does, maybe you could post pictures.

Jim

Last edited by James K; November 3, 2014 at 08:04 PM.
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Old November 3, 2014, 07:56 PM   #9
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It is cast iron, not steel. And the picture showing the breech of the barrel looks like the metal was cracked for quite a while before it actually gave way.

Why in the world would someone make 6mm Lee Navy cases out of 30-40 Krag? You are supposed to use 220 Swift brass.
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Old November 3, 2014, 08:02 PM   #10
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I think by that date Winchester would have been using steel, and yes, steel can give that appearance when torn. I think cast iron (or more likely wrought iron) would have broken rather than peeling back under pressure.

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Old November 3, 2014, 09:01 PM   #11
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"It is cast iron, not steel."

No. No it is not.

The barrels were manufactured of nickel steel, which Winchester had just introduced in the Model 1894 and 1895 rifles (and as required in the Navy's specifications).

I'm not sure if the receiver was also nickel steel, but it was decidedly steel.

The 6mm Lee Navy cartridge was developed for the new smokeless rifle powders. Wrought, cast, or ductile iron would have been totally inappropriate and unsuitable for this application.
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Old November 4, 2014, 02:06 AM   #12
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I'm kinda with Scorch- some of those crack areas look like discoloration might suggest that catastrophe might have started long before it's unhingement.
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Old November 4, 2014, 06:50 AM   #13
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The owner of the rifle has a discussion going on Reddit Guns at:

http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comment...today_has_not/

It's interesting.

One theory is that his first shot was a squib load that left a bullet lodged in the bore.

Another theory (unlikely, I think) is that the rifle was at some point modified to use the rimmed version of the .236 Navy round.

I don't see that being likely as I'm not sure that the magazine is dimensionally capable of taking the rimmed round without being reconstructed from the ground up.

That said, I agree that it does look as if there was a hidden problem in the receiver and it finally left loose.

The owner took a nasty shot in the forehead right between the eyes, possibly from the firing pin being blown out. He's a lucky man.
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Old November 4, 2014, 09:02 AM   #14
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The reddit thread indicates some uncertainty as to barrel diameter.
Sometimes it says .243" sometimes it says .236". Those are the nominal groove and bore diameters, so the issue is confused by the Internet Tradition of measuring the groove diameter and calling it bore diameter.

I think a .008" undersize bullet shot from a case with the head converted from large rimmed to medium rimless would be a major risk. There were some imported .243 Winchesters with undersize barrels down around .239-.241" that gave trouble in more modern designs with better materials.

I have seldom seen a picture of a broken gun part not described by Internet Metallurgists as "crystallized" and consider it an unreliable evaluation based on appearance and no data. My agency had a staff pro metallurgist and he was seldom so positive.

The primer pocket in the offending case looks awful big but that may be an effect of the photo angle and the reduced diameter case.
Can you get a measurement on that? An enlarged primer pocket is a sign of very high pressure, altered case and old steel notwithstanding.
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Old November 4, 2014, 10:01 AM   #15
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"Internet Metallurgists as "crystallized" and consider it an unreliable evaluation based on appearance and no data."

How dare you question my high degree in Observational Internt Crystallography?

FFS, Jim, it was a question based on the appearance of a photo. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I'm authoritatively evaluating the physical properties of something I've never laid hands on, or how I derived conclusive data from findings that don't exist.

I asked a QUESTION, even alluding that it could very well be caused by the camera flash or ambient light.

Stop alluding I've got it all figured out when I've done no such thing.

That said, I've seen the dread frosty pattern on many pieces of broken metal over the years, stuff that I've either broken or which has been broken and I've been trying to fix.

Is it conclusive that such a pattern is a contributing factor to a failure?

Beats the hell out of me, I just know I've seen it a lot over the years.
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Old November 4, 2014, 10:51 AM   #16
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OK, it was a question.
I still think any mention of "crystallized" is jumping to conclusions no matter how phrased. For that matter, since steel is a crystalline solid, it is hardly surprising that it is seen to break along crystal boundaries at any time.

As to "dreaded frosty appearance", do you speculate there was "frost" inside the metal that caused it to break?
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Old November 4, 2014, 12:07 PM   #17
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Yep, an ethereal ice princess came down and decided to sew a little discontent.
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Old November 4, 2014, 12:13 PM   #18
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My guess?

Most closely matches a ductile fracture, which could explain the apparent lustre of the fracture boundaries.
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Old November 4, 2014, 12:13 PM   #19
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That "crystallized" appearance is common with both steel and iron and cannot be used to determine the material involved. I don't see anything that indicates a previous crack; the darkening is normal and is the result of powder gas let loose at high pressure.

IMHO, the problem was the case. The head was seriously weakened by cutting the extractor groove. The case first let go at the extractor slot, the gas blowing out the extractor and the receiver side wall. That released the barrel and the rest of the case head blew out, releasing even more high pressure gas to blow the receiver apart and blow down into the magazine, splitting and breaking the magazine and stock.

Once that case let go, any receiver, whether made of steel, iron, or chewing gum, would have been seriously damaged. That receiver design, with its large sidewall, probably was more likely to be damaged than another type, but that is irrelevant; the receiver did not fracture itself. If the case had not let go, there would have been no problem.

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Old November 4, 2014, 12:38 PM   #20
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"cannot be used to determine the material involved."

I don't think we were going in that direction...

It's a known fact that the receivers on the Winchester-Lee rifles are steel.

"The head was seriously weakened by cutting the extractor groove."

I'm not so sure. I think someone may have been on target with the comment about a bore obstruction after the first shot.

While the individual case that left loose could have been mis-cut, the case itself should have been more than up to the task of having the extractor groove recut. Properly done, it shoudln't have removed enough metal to weaken the case head to cause this kind of failure.

"I don't see anything that indicates a previous crack"

From what we can see, no. I'm more interested in what we can't see.

It's a known fact that there were a lot of issues with the ammunition that Winchester and UMC loaded for the Navy. Numerous lots were rejected because the ballistics were all over the place, and when the rifles were surplussed, the ammunition was found to be so badly decomposed that it all had to be destroyed.

Could receiver strength have been compromised by faulty ammunition in the early 20th century? No way of knowing now, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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Old November 4, 2014, 01:05 PM   #21
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Hi, Mike,

I seen the results of a fair number of cases of firing a bullet into a bore obstruction and have never seen it blow apart a receiver, though a barrel split can break the receiver apart. Here there was no mention or indication of a barrel bulge or split; the damage was confined to the receiver.

I suggested that the OP get his friend to section that fired case. Or you can do that if you have an R-P .30-40 case handy; I think you might be surprised by how much cutting that extractor groove weakened the interior base.

Jim
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Old November 4, 2014, 01:13 PM   #22
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You've never seen a bore obstruction run pressures so high that they blow out an unsupported area of case head?

I have.

But, to be fair, only in handguns.

Guy I worked with dumped a hardball .45 into a barrel blocked with the previous round's bullet.

The case head blew at the extractor, the magazine coughed out, the one grip panel was broken...

In other words, it looked exactly as if he had a serious overpressure or double charge.

The barrel didn't seem to be damaged, so we hammered the bullets out and as far as I know he's still shooting it.
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Old November 4, 2014, 01:46 PM   #23
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Agreed, I have seen all manner of bulged and split barrels from obstructions, but not a backblast that demolished the action.

I agree with the blown casehead releasing gas into the metal box sometimes known as a "receiver."

Too much modification to the Krag brass?
Too heavy a load?
Both?

I don't know about the old insults finally catching up with it, though.
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