Observation about Herco...

crimsondave · February 16, 2010, 09:23 AM

Anybody notice that what little data is listed for loading Herco in pistol ammo seems weak in modern manuals? Look at the presures listed for the other powder maxes then look at Herco. It is thousands less than others. My old Speer #11 lists max at 20% above modern manuals for 9mm.

**Unclenick** · February 16, 2010, 09:35 AM

Hadn't looked, but I know lots of manuals, Speer in particular, have revised their old load data down, as it was just too warm for some guns. It's one of those problems that come out of copper crushers being non-linear pressure indicators and sensitive to operator measuring skills. Old data run on them has proven unreliable in many instances, as the industry has changed over to piezo transducers. A lot of revisions have occurred as that changeover proceeds. A few up, but most down.

Some of Speer's data still is warm. There was a post at the Shooter's Forum not too long ago (can't recall the chambering or the powder) where the bottom load in the Speer #13 manual was higher than the max load for the same powder at Hodgdon's site. I think it was 41 Mag, maybe? I don't have #13 to check.

Once you have a single modern pressure system on the gun, if you see and apples-to-apples psi-to-psi comparisons, for example, where the Herco load is just plain lower in pressure, then I would suspect either that its bulk has filled the case or that some pressure sign showed up that isn't reflected by the pressure reading. Some powders have odd, peaky behavior under some conditions. That's why Blue Dot loads for the 125 grain .357 Mag loads and the .41 Mag got pulled by Alliant. They were getting occasional pressure spikes in their testing that they couldn't account for, and still can't, so they erred on the safe side.

crimsondave · February 16, 2010, 10:31 AM

I'm just going to have to slowly work up my loads and watch out for pressure. I'm VERY disappointed in my "hot" SD loads with Herco. I was told it was great for hot 9mm loads, but using what little modern data I can find, it is anything but. Sub 1000 fps out of a full legnth 9mm is not what I was looking for. Should have never gotten out the chrono.

SL1 · February 16, 2010, 10:50 AM

Dave,

Herco was more popular in the past, and there is a lot of old data for it. However, I would recommend that you NOT use most of it. I have one amazing over-load example for it in the .357 Magnum from a manual with an approximately 1970 copyright that computes to 70,000 psi in QuickLOAD. The next manual from that vendor had a much lower max charge. I wonder how many guns that load damaged. Anyway, the legends of Herco providing high-power loads seem to persist from those days. I would choose better powders that are available today.

SL1

sewerman · February 16, 2010, 12:42 PM

i bought some herco last year on sale for $19.00 lb.

i have ued it in 10% reduced loads in a ruger blackhawk .357.
i have found it to be very accurate for my gun.

158gr rnfp cast bullet 6.5 gr herco.

i have also experienced using the same reloads in my .357 lever rifle very accurate.

is a little dirty but not bad.

sewerman

88KEYS · February 16, 2010, 01:05 PM

I love Hreco, us it in the 9mm and 45 acp, I can check my own records if you want some of my data, use it all the time. Herco is dirty and give's off smoke when you you shoot. It give's good velocity and have found it to be very accurate. I bought an 8lb jug and it said new cleaner burning, but still was smokey. The guys I shoot with joke all the time not to be down wind, when I shoot the stuff.

I would say Herco is one of my best powders for the 45 ACP. I will check back if you want some of my loads, just will sat it works for me.

crimsondave · February 16, 2010, 02:06 PM

Quote:

I would say Herco is one of my best powders for the 45 ACP. I will check back if you want some of my loads, just will sat it works for me.

PM sent.

Quote:

Herco was more popular in the past, and there is a lot of old data for it. However, I would recommend that you NOT use most of it. I have one amazing over-load example for it in the .357 Magnum from a manual with an approximately 1970 copyright that computes to 70,000 psi in QuickLOAD. The next manual from that vendor had a much lower max charge. I wonder how many guns that load damaged. Anyway, the legends of Herco providing high-power loads seem to persist from those days. I would choose better powders that are available today.

Tell you the truth, I didn't want Herco, but I bought the only thing I could get. I got the powder back when it was about impossible to get any. I really don't want to waste it since I bought it. When it runs out, I'll likely change.

tom234 · February 16, 2010, 03:04 PM

I've bought 2 8# of HERCO over the years since it was a lot cheaper than Unique or Blue Dot and it has a burn rate in-between. I now use it for all my lead bullet handgun loads from .38 special target loads up to moderate .44 mag loads. It shoot well in .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads as well. Unfortunately, Alliant chooses to publish little HERCO data and concentrates on jacketed bullets and newer powders like Power Pistol. I have complained to Alliant to publish more HERCO data to no avail. Currently there is no lead bullet data for 9mm, .40 S&W, and 10MM. When I run out of HERCO I'm going to switch to Accurate Powder. They publish lots of lead bullet data for all their powders.

88KEYS · February 16, 2010, 04:03 PM

Tom

I never thought about it, you are correct about the lead data with Herco, I just looked at a few books all I found for 9MM was Hornady 124 lead with Herco starting at 4.0 with a max of 4.8 list MV @1050.

I checked my records an had several loads all in this range the best was the Shooters Choice 125 gr (lead) CCI/SP-MAG Primer 4.6 Herco OAL 1150 Crony
1056/1033/1027/1005/1042 sd. 18 ave. 1032 296 f/pounds.

I like Herco best in the 45 ACP, just smokey but accurate.

zxcvbob · February 16, 2010, 04:17 PM

Herco works very well with cast bullets in .357 Magnum and in high-pressure .45 Colt loads. It burns just like a very bulky version of WSF, so it should be great in top-end 9mm *if* there's enough room in the case for it.

I think I use 8.0 grains of Herco with 158 grain bullets in the .357 but don't remember for sure. (I've been using more AA#7 lately because I got a bunch of it cheap.)

Edit: I just looked up 9mm data for Herco: 125 grain FMJ, 1.15" OAL, 6.5 grains max, 1180 fps from a 4" barrel, 32700 psi. (Alliant Reloader's Guide, 2001)

tom234 · February 16, 2010, 04:43 PM

Quote:

I like HERCO best in the 45 ACP, just smokey but accurate.

Ditto. I shoot 225 LTC with 6.0 gr HERCO and it's a great pin load. I don't worry about the smoke; it's just part of shooting lead. Since I started shooting Black Power it's really no biggie......

February 16, 2010, 09:35 AM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Hadn't looked, but I know lots of manuals, Speer in particular, have revised their old load data down, as it was just too warm for some guns. It's one of those problems that come out of copper crushers being non-linear pressure indicators and sensitive to operator measuring skills. Old data run on them has proven unreliable in many instances, as the industry has changed over to piezo transducers. A lot of revisions have occurred as that changeover proceeds. A few up, but most down. Some of Speer's data still is warm. There was a post at the Shooter's Forum not too long ago (can't recall the chambering or the powder) where the bottom load in the Speer #13 manual was higher than the max load for the same powder at Hodgdon's site. I think it was 41 Mag, maybe? I don't have #13 to check. Once you have a single modern pressure system on the gun, if you see and apples-to-apples psi-to-psi comparisons, for example, where the Herco load is just plain lower in pressure, then I would suspect either that its bulk has filled the case or that some pressure sign showed up that isn't reflected by the pressure reading. Some powders have odd, peaky behavior under some conditions. That's why Blue Dot loads for the 125 grain .357 Mag loads and the .41 Mag got pulled by Alliant. They were getting occasional pressure spikes in their testing that they couldn't account for, and still can't, so they erred on the safe side. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; February 16, 2010 at 09:45 AM.

February 16, 2010, 12:42 PM	#5
sewerman Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2005 Location: hurricane alley, florida Posts: 304	i bought some herco last year on sale for $19.00 lb. i have ued it in 10% reduced loads in a ruger blackhawk .357. i have found it to be very accurate for my gun. 158gr rnfp cast bullet 6.5 gr herco. i have also experienced using the same reloads in my .357 lever rifle very accurate. is a little dirty but not bad. sewerman __________________ "When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny!" Thomas Jefferson "They that can give up an essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety!" Benjamin franklin The Armed Citizen PREVENTS tyranny!

February 16, 2010, 01:05 PM	#6
88KEYS Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Posts: 145	Good Stuff I love Hreco, us it in the 9mm and 45 acp, I can check my own records if you want some of my data, use it all the time. Herco is dirty and give's off smoke when you you shoot. It give's good velocity and have found it to be very accurate. I bought an 8lb jug and it said new cleaner burning, but still was smokey. The guys I shoot with joke all the time not to be down wind, when I shoot the stuff. I would say Herco is one of my best powders for the 45 ACP. I will check back if you want some of my loads, just will sat it works for me.

February 16, 2010, 04:03 PM	#9
88KEYS Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Posts: 145	Lead Data Tom I never thought about it, you are correct about the lead data with Herco, I just looked at a few books all I found for 9MM was Hornady 124 lead with Herco starting at 4.0 with a max of 4.8 list MV @1050. I checked my records an had several loads all in this range the best was the Shooters Choice 125 gr (lead) CCI/SP-MAG Primer 4.6 Herco OAL 1150 Crony 1056/1033/1027/1005/1042 sd. 18 ave. 1032 296 f/pounds. I like Herco best in the 45 ACP, just smokey but accurate.

February 16, 2010, 04:17 PM	#10
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Herco works very well with cast bullets in .357 Magnum and in high-pressure .45 Colt loads. It burns just like a very bulky version of WSF, so it should be great in top-end 9mm if there's enough room in the case for it. I think I use 8.0 grains of Herco with 158 grain bullets in the .357 but don't remember for sure. (I've been using more AA#7 lately because I got a bunch of it cheap.) Edit: I just looked up 9mm data for Herco: 125 grain FMJ, 1.15" OAL, 6.5 grains max, 1180 fps from a 4" barrel, 32700 psi. (Alliant Reloader's Guide, 2001) __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth Last edited by zxcvbob; February 16, 2010 at 04:26 PM.

February 16, 2010, 09:23 AM	#1
crimsondave Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2009 Location: North Augusta, SC Posts: 490	Observation about Herco... Anybody notice that what little data is listed for loading Herco in pistol ammo seems weak in modern manuals? Look at the presures listed for the other powder maxes then look at Herco. It is thousands less than others. My old Speer #11 lists max at 20% above modern manuals for 9mm.

February 16, 2010, 10:31 AM	#3
crimsondave Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2009 Location: North Augusta, SC Posts: 490	I'm just going to have to slowly work up my loads and watch out for pressure. I'm VERY disappointed in my "hot" SD loads with Herco. I was told it was great for hot 9mm loads, but using what little modern data I can find, it is anything but. Sub 1000 fps out of a full legnth 9mm is not what I was looking for. Should have never gotten out the chrono.

February 16, 2010, 10:50 AM	#4
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Dave, Herco was more popular in the past, and there is a lot of old data for it. However, I would recommend that you NOT use most of it. I have one amazing over-load example for it in the .357 Magnum from a manual with an approximately 1970 copyright that computes to 70,000 psi in QuickLOAD. The next manual from that vendor had a much lower max charge. I wonder how many guns that load damaged. Anyway, the legends of Herco providing high-power loads seem to persist from those days. I would choose better powders that are available today. SL1

February 16, 2010, 03:04 PM	#8
tom234 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 753	I've bought 2 8# of HERCO over the years since it was a lot cheaper than Unique or Blue Dot and it has a burn rate in-between. I now use it for all my lead bullet handgun loads from .38 special target loads up to moderate .44 mag loads. It shoot well in .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads as well. Unfortunately, Alliant chooses to publish little HERCO data and concentrates on jacketed bullets and newer powders like Power Pistol. I have complained to Alliant to publish more HERCO data to no avail. Currently there is no lead bullet data for 9mm, .40 S&W, and 10MM. When I run out of HERCO I'm going to switch to Accurate Powder. They publish lots of lead bullet data for all their powders.