A "Helping the Cops" Scenario ...

Stuohn · April 26, 2009, 10:07 PM

A hypothetical senario: If you were at the gun range/sportmens club and you witnessed two officers attempting to arrest someone. Ok now that person starts shooting and both officers go down. What do you do?

For the sake of this senario we will say this took place 10yds from you.

Please keep in mind that this is all the information you have. You know nothing about any crimes the person may or may not have committed.

Tex S · April 26, 2009, 11:32 PM

I wonder if the cops would throw away my outstanding parking tickets if I hosed the guy for them?

I would take cover. If innocent bystanders started going down, I would step in.

chemgirlie · April 26, 2009, 11:44 PM

Armchair quarterbacking is easy. In that kind of a situation you have to consider that if you shoot the BG the first thing the cops see when when they drive up is you holding your rifle and 3 dead bodies.

PoorSoulInJersey · April 26, 2009, 11:53 PM

I'd stay out of it.

You don't know what's going on. Maybe he's Dirty Harry and the evil crooked cops just came for him.

ChicagoTex · April 27, 2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Maybe he's Dirty Harry and the evil crooked cops just came for him.

That's the most insane postulation I've ever heard. If I'm at a gun range or anywhere else and I see somebody take down two uniformed officers, it is readily apparent to me that: 1. this guy is very much a violent criminal and 2. my life is very much in danger (if he just shot two UOs, what exactly is going to prevent him from shooting me?).

I'd try to drop him in a heartbeat.

Keltyke · April 27, 2009, 06:00 AM

An active shooter within 30 feet is an imminent threat to my life. Enough said.

Tru Trak · April 27, 2009, 06:47 AM

In my opinion hypothetical situations are why we carry and practice in the first place. The scenario described could easily become reality in a heartbeat. My thoughts are I take two seconds to see if he turns the gun on himself and does the right thing for taking two lives in such a manner, and if he doesn't, hopefully I could show him the way. Afterwords I again hope with a cool head I call 911 and aid the fallen officers. Either way, your life as you know it will never be the same.

Al Norris · April 27, 2009, 07:30 AM

This one belongs up in the Tactics Forum.

Gbro · April 27, 2009, 08:16 AM

Come now, I think you are tripping a little when you imagine 2 Leo's approaching someone on a firing line. If that were nessesary you would have sensed something before their approach. Like you are down already and their is no other alternative but to intervene.
So I would look to poor jersey's assessment, because something is smelly here.

hogdogs · April 27, 2009, 08:38 AM

Gbro, Actually this thread is directly related to a case occurring saturday at my local 5 stand, sporting clays, pistol and rifle range.
http://www.shoalriver.com/
When 2 officers were sent there as a domestic violence suspect was found there. They were both mowed down with rifle fire and died.
http://www.pnj.com/article/20090425/NEWS01/90425003

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7430214
Nothin' fishy in this case.
As for me I would aid anyone being fired upon. LEO are usually in the right so I shoot for their attacker.
Brent

Brian Pfleuger · April 27, 2009, 09:10 AM

They tried to arrest a violent offender at a time and place that they KNEW he was armed? That seems not smart.

hogdogs · April 27, 2009, 09:32 AM

pizza, It would seem not so smart to some but the LEO's are doing a job. Firefighters going in a burning building seems "not so smart" to many as well.
In this case the suspect was known to be armed and had previous DV charges among others. The threat to the general public trumped allowing the LEO's to wait for a safer time to apprehend him I am guessing. Florida is a state that strips gun rights for DV conviction.
Brent

hogdogs · April 27, 2009, 09:39 AM

In this case the following article goes into better detail about the individual and his tendencies that likely dictated the way LEO's handled this case.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...NzVcgD97QEI400
He was volatile at minimum and possibly mentally unstable at worst...
Brent

Brian Pfleuger · April 27, 2009, 10:17 AM

Well, obviously I wasn't there but it seems to me that the guy was no more a threat to the general public at that moment than he was the day before, or would have been the day after. Fireman generally go into burning buildings when they have some general idea of the danger involved, and they tend not to go, or be called out, when it gets too bad to be in there.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there were any number of better times and places to confront this guy.

As to the OP:

I'd shoot the guy if I was there. I don't know how you could not. He is clearly and obviously a real and present danger. He's not even a threat, the threat has already become action. If he turned and ran I'd shoot him in the back. It's one of the very few situations wherein there are no rules.

KingEdward · April 27, 2009, 10:42 AM

If I am anywhere and see two LEOs get shot, I will try to do two things)

1 - get info on who shot them, description, tag of vehicle, etc.

2 - help the LEOs who are injured. whether that is from my phone, their phone/radio, or some other way.

I probably will not shoot (or try to shoot) the BG unless it's a situation where
he is just releasing rounds into crowds or coming towards me shooting or aiming.

I would think that most anyone who shoots two cops is probably running and I wouldn't chase but I'd try to get what info I could.

GHF · April 27, 2009, 11:03 AM

Given that I am in Florida (and this happened in Florida for those in the 33 states that have receprocity), I would drop the shooter immediately, based on the following law in Florida:

776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--...... However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

Shooting a cop is a forcible felony, and you - being a witness to a capital crime, are in danger as soon as the shooter realizes you are there.

Drop the shooter as quickly as you can.

treg · April 27, 2009, 11:36 AM

Unless you are intimately familiar with the situation you don't KNOW who the BG / GG are. Just because someone has a uniform on doesn't mean they are GG. Just because shooter doesn't have a uniform on doesn't make him the BG.

CYA and be a good witness.

David Armstrong · April 27, 2009, 12:58 PM

As a retired LEO, let me commend and suggest all read the post he (King Edward) made. Unless the BG is presenting some kind of further immediate threat, leave him alone. Get help for the downed officers, be a good witness.

publius · April 27, 2009, 01:20 PM

In almost every situation involving the police I would stay out of it. But... both cops are down, there are no other cops to help, I have to assume the b/g is going to shoot me next so I am going to take him out.

Ian0351 · April 27, 2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Shooting a cop is a forcible felony, and you - being a witness to a capital crime, are in danger as soon as the shooter realizes you are there.

This is the case in Washington also, and If I wast at the range, had a weapon, and felt threatened (yes to all 3 in the case put forward by HogDogs) I would certainly fire at the offender.

As to why the cops chose this venue to apprehend the guy: maybe they felt (or were given orders to the intent) that any rational suspect surrounded by armed citizens would be less likely to use his own weapon, especially if said suspect is known to always carry a gun. As has been mentioned, a mentally ill offender certainly ups the ante.

Regardless, it's always a shame when hardworking civil servants don't come home at the end of the day... I feel very sorry for two families.

Brian Pfleuger · April 27, 2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Unless you are intimately familiar with the situation you don't KNOW who the BG / GG are. Just because someone has a uniform on doesn't mean they are GG. Just because shooter doesn't have a uniform on doesn't make him the BG.

So these 2 guys drive up in a marked patrol car, in broad day-light, in a public place, in full police uniforms and attempt to arrest someone 30 feet from you and your not "intimately familiar" with the situation or confident that the 2 are LEOs?

After the guy shoots them and leaves I guess you'd better not render assistance either, those guys on the ground could be dangerous criminals. I mean, maybe the guy driving away in the truck is a cop and his radio was hit in the exchange. He might be just going to get help.:barf:

Rich Miranda · April 27, 2009, 01:37 PM

If you disagree with me, criticize all you want.

A person who has just shot two cops just yards from me is an imminent danger to my life, as far as I'm concerned. I pull my weapon and, as calmly as I can, put as many rounds into him as I can.

I'd have one advantage: If I'm quick enough, he wouldn't be expecting fire from someone else yet.

Assuming I'm alive, when the cops come to investigate, I explain in simple terms what happened, and let them do what they will (arrest me, etc.). Then I make a phone call and get lawyered up.

When all is said and done, other witnesses and ballistics will confirm that I didn't kill the cops. I'm not even worried about that.

Bottom line for me is that I feel obligated to mount an immediate defense. The rest will sort itself out.

LaBulldog · April 27, 2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

An active shooter within 30 feet is an imminent threat to my life. Enough said.

One more thing, shoot the bad guy.
Then it would be wise to kick any weapons within reach of the bad guy out of his reach, call 911 explain what happened, who you are and wait for the police.

Kyo · April 27, 2009, 01:52 PM

Not to sound like a smart ass, but why would you try to detain someone at a pistol/rifle range? The perfect example of why not to was posted when that guy shot the two officers at the range. I just don't agree with the logic there. Personally I would just wait till he's done shooting, and starts going back to the building doors. It is really sad.
I would turn on my cell phone video recorder just in case I need it later, and be on guard, IE, GTFO

ChicagoTex · April 27, 2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

When all is said and done, other witnesses and ballistics will confirm that I didn't kill the cops. I'm not even worried about that.

You're absolutely correct in that this evidence WILL exonerate you.

Unfortunately, you're also absolutely correct in that you will almost certainly be arrested until that evidence exonerates you.

Even so, you still gotta do what you gotta do. And covering your ears and pretending the guy who just murdered two cops in front of you isn't a threat to yourself isn't a viable option.

In short: I agree.

April 26, 2009, 10:07 PM	#1
Stuohn Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Back Home in Baytown, TX Posts: 139	A "Helping the Cops" Scenario ... A hypothetical senario: If you were at the gun range/sportmens club and you witnessed two officers attempting to arrest someone. Ok now that person starts shooting and both officers go down. What do you do? For the sake of this senario we will say this took place 10yds from you. Please keep in mind that this is all the information you have. You know nothing about any crimes the person may or may not have committed.

April 27, 2009, 08:16 AM	#9
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Come now, I think you are tripping a little when you imagine 2 Leo's approaching someone on a firing line. If that were nessesary you would have sensed something before their approach. Like you are down already and their is no other alternative but to intervene. So I would look to poor jersey's assessment, because something is smelly here. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

April 27, 2009, 09:10 AM	#11
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	They tried to arrest a violent offender at a time and place that they KNEW he was armed? That seems not smart. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

April 27, 2009, 10:17 AM	#14
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Well, obviously I wasn't there but it seems to me that the guy was no more a threat to the general public at that moment than he was the day before, or would have been the day after. Fireman generally go into burning buildings when they have some general idea of the danger involved, and they tend not to go, or be called out, when it gets too bad to be in there. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there were any number of better times and places to confront this guy. As to the OP: I'd shoot the guy if I was there. I don't know how you could not. He is clearly and obviously a real and present danger. He's not even a threat, the threat has already become action. If he turned and ran I'd shoot him in the back. It's one of the very few situations wherein there are no rules. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

April 27, 2009, 11:03 AM	#16
GHF Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 84	What Would I Do Given that I am in Florida (and this happened in Florida for those in the 33 states that have receprocity), I would drop the shooter immediately, based on the following law in Florida: 776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--...... However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be. Shooting a cop is a forcible felony, and you - being a witness to a capital crime, are in danger as soon as the shooter realizes you are there. Drop the shooter as quickly as you can.

April 26, 2009, 11:32 PM	#2
Tex S Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: Fort Worth, TEXAS Posts: 909	I wonder if the cops would throw away my outstanding parking tickets if I hosed the guy for them? I would take cover. If innocent bystanders started going down, I would step in.

April 26, 2009, 11:44 PM	#3
chemgirlie Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 331	Armchair quarterbacking is easy. In that kind of a situation you have to consider that if you shoot the BG the first thing the cops see when when they drive up is you holding your rifle and 3 dead bodies.

April 26, 2009, 11:53 PM	#4
PoorSoulInJersey Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 220	I'd stay out of it. You don't know what's going on. Maybe he's Dirty Harry and the evil crooked cops just came for him.

April 27, 2009, 06:00 AM	#6
Keltyke Junior member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 2,933	An active shooter within 30 feet is an imminent threat to my life. Enough said.

April 27, 2009, 06:47 AM	#7
Tru Trak Member Join Date: December 11, 2008 Posts: 45	In my opinion hypothetical situations are why we carry and practice in the first place. The scenario described could easily become reality in a heartbeat. My thoughts are I take two seconds to see if he turns the gun on himself and does the right thing for taking two lives in such a manner, and if he doesn't, hopefully I could show him the way. Afterwords I again hope with a cool head I call 911 and aid the fallen officers. Either way, your life as you know it will never be the same.

April 27, 2009, 07:30 AM	#8
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	This one belongs up in the Tactics Forum.

April 27, 2009, 08:38 AM	#10
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Gbro, Actually this thread is directly related to a case occurring saturday at my local 5 stand, sporting clays, pistol and rifle range. http://www.shoalriver.com/ When 2 officers were sent there as a domestic violence suspect was found there. They were both mowed down with rifle fire and died. http://www.pnj.com/article/20090425/NEWS01/90425003 http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7430214 Nothin' fishy in this case. As for me I would aid anyone being fired upon. LEO are usually in the right so I shoot for their attacker. Brent

April 27, 2009, 09:32 AM	#12
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	pizza, It would seem not so smart to some but the LEO's are doing a job. Firefighters going in a burning building seems "not so smart" to many as well. In this case the suspect was known to be armed and had previous DV charges among others. The threat to the general public trumped allowing the LEO's to wait for a safer time to apprehend him I am guessing. Florida is a state that strips gun rights for DV conviction. Brent

April 27, 2009, 09:39 AM	#13
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	In this case the following article goes into better detail about the individual and his tendencies that likely dictated the way LEO's handled this case. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...NzVcgD97QEI400 He was volatile at minimum and possibly mentally unstable at worst... Brent

April 27, 2009, 10:42 AM	#15
KingEdward Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2009 Location: The Volunteer State Posts: 439	If I am anywhere and see two LEOs get shot, I will try to do two things) 1 - get info on who shot them, description, tag of vehicle, etc. 2 - help the LEOs who are injured. whether that is from my phone, their phone/radio, or some other way. I probably will not shoot (or try to shoot) the BG unless it's a situation where he is just releasing rounds into crowds or coming towards me shooting or aiming. I would think that most anyone who shoots two cops is probably running and I wouldn't chase but I'd try to get what info I could.

April 27, 2009, 11:36 AM	#17
treg Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2006 Posts: 1,102	Unless you are intimately familiar with the situation you don't KNOW who the BG / GG are. Just because someone has a uniform on doesn't mean they are GG. Just because shooter doesn't have a uniform on doesn't make him the BG. CYA and be a good witness. __________________ .44 Special: For those who get it, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is possible.

April 27, 2009, 12:58 PM	#18
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	As a retired LEO, let me commend and suggest all read the post he (King Edward) made. Unless the BG is presenting some kind of further immediate threat, leave him alone. Get help for the downed officers, be a good witness. Last edited by David Armstrong; April 27, 2009 at 02:10 PM.

April 27, 2009, 01:20 PM	#19
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,505	In almost every situation involving the police I would stay out of it. But... both cops are down, there are no other cops to help, I have to assume the b/g is going to shoot me next so I am going to take him out. __________________ "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain

April 27, 2009, 01:37 PM	#22
Rich Miranda Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2008 Location: San Antonio, not San Antone... Posts: 1,203	If you disagree with me, criticize all you want. A person who has just shot two cops just yards from me is an imminent danger to my life, as far as I'm concerned. I pull my weapon and, as calmly as I can, put as many rounds into him as I can. I'd have one advantage: If I'm quick enough, he wouldn't be expecting fire from someone else yet. Assuming I'm alive, when the cops come to investigate, I explain in simple terms what happened, and let them do what they will (arrest me, etc.). Then I make a phone call and get lawyered up. When all is said and done, other witnesses and ballistics will confirm that I didn't kill the cops. I'm not even worried about that. Bottom line for me is that I feel obligated to mount an immediate defense. The rest will sort itself out. __________________ Read this!: I collect .38 Special and .357 Mag cartridges and I will PAY CASH for the headstamps I don't already have! Please PM me. Please donate blood, plasma, and platelets - people's lives literally depend on it.

April 27, 2009, 01:52 PM	#24
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	Not to sound like a smart ass, but why would you try to detain someone at a pistol/rifle range? The perfect example of why not to was posted when that guy shot the two officers at the range. I just don't agree with the logic there. Personally I would just wait till he's done shooting, and starts going back to the building doors. It is really sad. I would turn on my cell phone video recorder just in case I need it later, and be on guard, IE, GTFO