CCW Scenario...Opinions Please - Page 3

FrankDrebin · July 17, 2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Frank:

Just curious, but how many fights have you been in since you turned say 18?

Two, why?

Quote:

You ask
"So why not just pull out your gun and shoot a guy who says "I'm gonna kick your a$$!!" After all, you don't know where he's going to stop if you let him start."

Because I'm adult, Frank. I haven't been in a fist fight since I was 15. Which shows that I must have some skills in getting out of tight spots. But, at my age, if someone physically starts one with me, I'll finish it the best way I can with the least amount of damage to me.

We're not talking about what you personally would or wouldn't do, we're, at least I am, talking about when you're legally justfied in using deadly force. I think the Arizona statute speaks for itself. I didn't see any duty to retreat in the AZ statute. It looks to me like the statute says you have to be in fear of deadly force before you can use deadly force.

Bob F. · July 17, 2005, 09:48 PM

There was a thread here or THR about one punch kills. If I've tried to back down, get away, he ain't hitting me! But what I do will depend on the specific circumstance: hand-to-hand, Fox, or Bang!

But the short answer is Fox. Everyone who CCW's SHOULD/MUST carry spray!! (edit) There's a thread about that, too!!

Stay safe.
Bob

butch50 · July 17, 2005, 09:55 PM

FranK: Just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from. Two since 18. How old are you now and how long ago was the last one?

As I stated earlier, I haven't been in one since I was 15 and I am 52 now, so that was a ways back.

FrankDrebin · July 17, 2005, 10:46 PM

41 years old, and the last one was in 1987. I've never been in a bar fight, although I came close when some local tried to bait me into one while I was on my honeymoon at a small bar on Molokai, Hawaii in '95.....

Dog Confetti · July 17, 2005, 11:14 PM

I've never heard the comment about spray before...it's a good point, but we're getting into the afore mentioned tool-belt territory here. I think it's safe to say few who carry will carry spray as well (myself included).

mvpel · July 18, 2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

We're not talking about what you personally would or wouldn't do, we're, at least I am, talking about when you're legally justfied in using deadly force. I think the Arizona statute speaks for itself. I didn't see any duty to retreat in the AZ statute. It looks to me like the statute says you have to be in fear of deadly force before you can use deadly force.

Yes, and that's the case pretty much nationwide, and it's also the case pretty much nationwide that deadly force includes force reasonably likely to cause great bodily harm (or "serious injury" as put in the Michigan statute, I think), as well as death.

Duxman · July 18, 2005, 09:00 AM

Sorry gentlemen but I disagree with carrying spray. Unless you want to practice and take a course in its proper use and deployment. Most of us here who CC, practice at least once a month if not more in drawing, shooting our targets and general firearms safety.

How many of you have sprayed in an enclosed area? If the wind is blowing the wrong direction or if you walk forward into the fine mist after you have sprayed the BG, you too will be affected. Since very few people walk around with googles, it is probably more danger to you than the BG - UNLESS you have training in it.

A taser is the probably the better weapon. But my personal feeling is - nobobdy is going to walk around with an arsenal on their belt. Its hard enough to remember to bring your wallet, cell phone etc.

This is a tough question - although most folks here are concentrating on the bar scenario(s) and going up against a drunken person. Lets not forget this orignal post was for ANY situation, so it could be a parking lot, grocery store or even 711.

This is a question for the legal eagles out there: What would your charges be if you were threatened and you shot the person in the kneecap? Or presented your weapon, did not point it @ BG, and it disarmed the situation? Or third question, revealed weapon, did not clear leather, and it made the BG back down?

azspyder · July 18, 2005, 10:27 AM

Frank, not to belabor the point, but AZ law, statute & case, basically says you are justified if the BG is about to kill or maim you (or you believe they are). I am informed that under the scenario we are discussing, charges would not be filed.
Az law also states that you can never be justified by verbal provocation only.
Hope this helps.
BTW, what state do you live in?

mvpel · July 18, 2005, 10:34 AM

Shooting someone in the kneecap is still the use of deadly force, and if you aim for the knees (and are enough of a crack shot that you can hit the target while your hands are shaking from an adrenaline dump) instead of center mass like everyone has been trained, then a sensible person might wonder whether you really believed that the use of deadly force was necessary in the first place.

Of course, if you were aiming for center mass and hit him in the knee, that's a different story.

Presenting your firearm - a.k.a. threatening the use of deadly force - and thereby defusing the situation, is what happens in some 98% of defensive gun uses, according to statistics with which most of us are familiar. This is how the antis can claim that defensive gun use is rare, by only counting the 2% of instances where the gun was actually fired, and the small subset of those instances where the attacker actually died of his wounds.

Of course, as we've seen over the years, it's best if you're the first one to call the cops if you're forced to draw you weapon.

FrankDrebin · July 18, 2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

BTW, what state do you live in?

MI

butch50 · July 18, 2005, 07:24 PM

Frank I suspect you aren't a candidate likely to get into a fist fight any time soon, unless you habituate the kind of places where they are common.

Basically I see it like this. The only way anyone is going to thump on me while I am carrying is if he has me physically cornered and can't be talked down. If he still tries to thump me while looking down the barrel of loaded and cocked .45 and has just been told that if he persists he will die - if he does persist in that set of circumstances then I would feel in danger of great bodily harm becuase he is obviously loony tunes.

Why is it that you don't see that the way that I do? What am I missing here?

FrankDrebin · July 18, 2005, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Frank I suspect you aren't a candidate likely to get into a fist fight any time soon, unless you habituate the kind of places where they are common.

I think it has more to do with mindset than where I hang out....A lot of the places I used to hang out were pretty rough....One was a cop bar that was gradually being taken over by bikers.

Quote:

Why is it that you don't see that the way that I do? What am I missing here?

Not sure....Maybe because of my job? I've never really been in a situation that I couldn't de-escalate by leaving. I'd probably feel differently if I were 20 years older, but for me personally, the time to draw a gun is about a half second before the hammer drops. I've never seen any good come out of bringing a gun to a potential fist fight. If there's reason to believe you're about to be robbed in an alley, as opposed to getting a punch in the face because your eyes lingered too long on various body parts of somone else's girlfriend, that might be a different story, but I can't think of any bar fight (for example) that I've ever seen where a gun would have made things better. Or maybe, I've learned to develop other options after being told one too many times after pulling a gun on someone "Go ahead, SHOOT me!!" In 20 years, I can't really even think of a time where someone cornered a normal, law abiding guy with the intent of beating him to death. The weaponless assaults I'm thinking of had far less reasonable potential for death, and hence a lot less reasonable justification to be countered by deadly force.

Also, there is the law, and there is what I'm personally prepared to do. If I had shot every person who I was legally justified in shooting over the past 20 years, I'd have probably killed at LEAST a half-dozen people probably more. I'm willing to take a few punches before I pull the trigger whether it's on-duty or off. I also try to carry some pepper spray when I'm out and about. It usually works great, and it's a lot easier to justify to a prosecutor than a half dozen .44 rounds. I wouldn't even THINK of hurting my knuckles or wrists in a physical cofrontation if I had a can of pepper spray available.

butch50 · July 18, 2005, 08:18 PM

Frank, in the scenario where I can't leave the area of the confrontation, it wouldn't be in a bar, cause in a bar I wouldn't be packing to start with (maybe pepper spray now

). It might be in a fender bender and dealing with road rage, but I can't really think of anywhere else it would be likely.

Let me ask you this then: If someone your size or slightly larger decided to beat you physically, and you had tried to walk away but could not, had tried to talk him down but could not, and you had forgotten your pepper spray, and he had you backed literally into a corner, you wouldn't pull your gun then? And if you did pull your gun and he still attacked you, you wouldn't shoot?

What do yo do for a living? Sounds like you are in law enforcement.

FrankDrebin · July 18, 2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Let me ask you this then: If someone your size or slightly larger decided to beat you physically, and you had tried to walk away but could not, had tried to talk him down but could not, and you had forgotten your pepper spray, and he had you backed literally into a corner, you wouldn't pull your gun then? And if you did pull your gun and he still attacked you, you wouldn't shoot?

What do yo do for a living? Sounds like you are in law enforcement.

My size or slightly larger? I definately wouldn't shoot or even pull my gun right away, and I wouldn't let myself get backed into a corner. Things would get physical before I'd get backed into a corner or retreated anywhere except toward the door. Things would also get physical before I pulled my gun. I definately wouldn't shoot him before he hit me, and probably not then. If he grabbed something to hit me with, he may get shot at that point. I wouldn't pull my gun until then. Or if he was getting the better of me to the point where I was really legitimately afraid he'd get my gun. I just can't think of any situation where I'd be in a fight like that and couldn't escape unless it was a robbery which is altogether different. In a road rage incident, you don't really have to get out of your car. What's he going to do? Kick your car? If he comes out with a tire iron or baseball bat, that's a different story. I really can't think of any potential assault and battery situations where I would pull my gun as a way to stop the situation.

Yes, I'm in law enforcement.

Duxman · July 19, 2005, 10:29 AM

Frank - I think you hit the nail right on the head. NOT getting yourself cornered is the best thing here. There are many situations that can be de-escalated just by leaving.

Or not being there in the first place. Most of us have very good evolved "gut" feelings. And if your gut is telling you its exit time - following it is probably a very good thing.

But the post is about what would you do if......and I think there have been some very creative options here and hopefully many folks now have an alternative or a plan if they get into a tight spot.

FrankDrebin · July 19, 2005, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Or not being there in the first place. Most of us have very good evolved "gut" feelings. And if your gut is telling you its exit time - following it is probably a very good thing.

There are some places I just can't avoid going if the hamburgers are really good, or the beer really cold.

big daddy 9mm · July 21, 2005, 12:21 AM

if you let a person know that you have a gun and they want to mess with you, they have serious issues and need to be taken down probably. I would try to let them know that I am not defenseless and then act from there. if they persue after you let them know that you are armed then shoot his ass...

July 17, 2005, 09:55 PM	#53
butch50 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2005 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 1,403	FranK: Just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from. Two since 18. How old are you now and how long ago was the last one? As I stated earlier, I haven't been in one since I was 15 and I am 52 now, so that was a ways back. __________________ ‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ ~ Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry

July 17, 2005, 10:46 PM	#54
FrankDrebin Junior member Join Date: May 21, 2004 Posts: 1,101	41 years old, and the last one was in 1987. I've never been in a bar fight, although I came close when some local tried to bait me into one while I was on my honeymoon at a small bar on Molokai, Hawaii in '95..... Last edited by FrankDrebin; July 17, 2005 at 11:20 PM.

July 18, 2005, 09:00 AM	#57
Duxman Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2005 Location: VA Posts: 1,294	No to spray.... Sorry gentlemen but I disagree with carrying spray. Unless you want to practice and take a course in its proper use and deployment. Most of us here who CC, practice at least once a month if not more in drawing, shooting our targets and general firearms safety. How many of you have sprayed in an enclosed area? If the wind is blowing the wrong direction or if you walk forward into the fine mist after you have sprayed the BG, you too will be affected. Since very few people walk around with googles, it is probably more danger to you than the BG - UNLESS you have training in it. A taser is the probably the better weapon. But my personal feeling is - nobobdy is going to walk around with an arsenal on their belt. Its hard enough to remember to bring your wallet, cell phone etc. This is a tough question - although most folks here are concentrating on the bar scenario(s) and going up against a drunken person. Lets not forget this orignal post was for ANY situation, so it could be a parking lot, grocery store or even 711. This is a question for the legal eagles out there: What would your charges be if you were threatened and you shot the person in the kneecap? Or presented your weapon, did not point it @ BG, and it disarmed the situation? Or third question, revealed weapon, did not clear leather, and it made the BG back down?

July 18, 2005, 10:34 AM	#59
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	Shooting someone in the kneecap is still the use of deadly force, and if you aim for the knees (and are enough of a crack shot that you can hit the target while your hands are shaking from an adrenaline dump) instead of center mass like everyone has been trained, then a sensible person might wonder whether you really believed that the use of deadly force was necessary in the first place. Of course, if you were aiming for center mass and hit him in the knee, that's a different story. Presenting your firearm - a.k.a. threatening the use of deadly force - and thereby defusing the situation, is what happens in some 98% of defensive gun uses, according to statistics with which most of us are familiar. This is how the antis can claim that defensive gun use is rare, by only counting the 2% of instances where the gun was actually fired, and the small subset of those instances where the attacker actually died of his wounds. Of course, as we've seen over the years, it's best if you're the first one to call the cops if you're forced to draw you weapon. __________________ Not a blacksmith could be found in the whole land of Israel, because the Philistines had said, "Otherwise the Hebrews will make swords or spears!" 1 Samuel 13:19

July 18, 2005, 07:24 PM	#61
butch50 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2005 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 1,403	Frank I suspect you aren't a candidate likely to get into a fist fight any time soon, unless you habituate the kind of places where they are common. Basically I see it like this. The only way anyone is going to thump on me while I am carrying is if he has me physically cornered and can't be talked down. If he still tries to thump me while looking down the barrel of loaded and cocked .45 and has just been told that if he persists he will die - if he does persist in that set of circumstances then I would feel in danger of great bodily harm becuase he is obviously loony tunes. Why is it that you don't see that the way that I do? What am I missing here? __________________ ‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ ~ Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry

July 17, 2005, 09:48 PM	#52
Bob F. Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2004 Location: Southeastern WV (left out "north") Posts: 195	There was a thread here or THR about one punch kills. If I've tried to back down, get away, he ain't hitting me! But what I do will depend on the specific circumstance: hand-to-hand, Fox, or Bang! But the short answer is Fox. Everyone who CCW's SHOULD/MUST carry spray!! (edit) There's a thread about that, too!! Stay safe. Bob

July 17, 2005, 11:14 PM	#55
Dog Confetti Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 212	I've never heard the comment about spray before...it's a good point, but we're getting into the afore mentioned tool-belt territory here. I think it's safe to say few who carry will carry spray as well (myself included).

July 18, 2005, 10:27 AM	#58
azspyder Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2005 Location: Scottsdale AZ Posts: 154	Frank, not to belabor the point, but AZ law, statute & case, basically says you are justified if the BG is about to kill or maim you (or you believe they are). I am informed that under the scenario we are discussing, charges would not be filed. Az law also states that you can never be justified by verbal provocation only. Hope this helps. BTW, what state do you live in?

July 18, 2005, 08:18 PM	#63
butch50 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2005 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 1,403	Frank, in the scenario where I can't leave the area of the confrontation, it wouldn't be in a bar, cause in a bar I wouldn't be packing to start with (maybe pepper spray now ). It might be in a fender bender and dealing with road rage, but I can't really think of anywhere else it would be likely. Let me ask you this then: If someone your size or slightly larger decided to beat you physically, and you had tried to walk away but could not, had tried to talk him down but could not, and you had forgotten your pepper spray, and he had you backed literally into a corner, you wouldn't pull your gun then? And if you did pull your gun and he still attacked you, you wouldn't shoot? What do yo do for a living? Sounds like you are in law enforcement. __________________ ‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ ~ Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry

July 19, 2005, 10:29 AM	#65
Duxman Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2005 Location: VA Posts: 1,294	Best D = escape route Frank - I think you hit the nail right on the head. NOT getting yourself cornered is the best thing here. There are many situations that can be de-escalated just by leaving. Or not being there in the first place. Most of us have very good evolved "gut" feelings. And if your gut is telling you its exit time - following it is probably a very good thing. But the post is about what would you do if......and I think there have been some very creative options here and hopefully many folks now have an alternative or a plan if they get into a tight spot.

July 21, 2005, 12:21 AM	#67
big daddy 9mm Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2005 Posts: 451	lets see here if you let a person know that you have a gun and they want to mess with you, they have serious issues and need to be taken down probably. I would try to let them know that I am not defenseless and then act from there. if they persue after you let them know that you are armed then shoot his ass...