Best buckshot round would be a small gauge magnum?

Oleg Volk · January 19, 2002, 05:14 PM

Just thinking here...if small patterns are desirable, why not introduce a specialized buckshot chambering. Could start with .410 and magnumize it. A 5" .410 shell would hold plenty of .40-caliber round balls with a fairly uniform fit to the barrel. The spread from such a gun would be similar to the group size of a smoothbore musket -- negligible up to 50m or so. The recoil wouldn't be any worse than from a 12ga. Using plated shot or wads between pellets would prevent deformation. Precedent: 2-ball .357 round made by Remington, only longer to fit half-dozen shells.

Art Eatman · January 19, 2002, 05:38 PM

Oleg, why don't we go play in "Shotguns"?

As far as tight patterns, I doubt that the diameter of the bore would affect pattern size out at 20-40 yards. That's more a function of choke.

Art

Zorro · January 19, 2002, 09:52 PM

A slug would be better.

C.R.Sam · January 20, 2002, 01:32 AM

Art....choke not applicable here, he runnin bore sized balls out in trail. I would think they would scatter tho as the hindermost would be tryin to pass the aheader mor ones.

Slug sounds good to me.

Sam

Dave McC · January 20, 2002, 03:36 PM

A few decades ago someone made a 38 Special defense load that was basically 2 short full WC bullets stacked behind a short SWC. Each weighed about 50 grains, so it duplicated a 148 gr target load. Effect was erratic, some huge cavities, some not so huge. Right about then the big JHP craze took off, and the idea wasted away.

5" will not feed through many repeaters, Oleg.

How about applying the above idea to a standard 410 shell,using the Minie Principle for obturation? Or use a shot cup, like Lyman does with its slug.

We did a thread recently about the 410 for HD. These might be something there that will help you.

Nightcrawler · January 20, 2002, 04:18 PM

Hmm...I know tighter patterns will increase your range, but if you want long range a carbine is probably better suited.

Is there any advantage to having a WIDER shot pattern? It decreases your effective range, but are there any advantages?

Benjamin · January 20, 2002, 07:48 PM

If I understand correctly, the idea in discussion is how to get a tight buckshot pattern out of a small bore shotshell.

I can't help but think that a .45-70 case with several lead balls would accomplish this well.
I have seen several loads of this sort in a somewhat old (80's) rifle re-loading manual. The author reported groups on the order of 2-3" @ 75 yards IIRC. I know that it does not fit the requirement of being a shotgun, but may be worth of consideration.

labgrade · January 21, 2002, 03:28 AM

I dunno ....

Just starting to "get back into shotguns" after a few years hiatus & patterned some 00 buck in a couple 12s a coupla days ago.

Fairly amazing that you can get whatever you want by just going through the motions, picking various loads & shooting them through various shotguns.

Tried 3X various flavors of "cheap" 00 buck through 2X shotguns & got a really tremendous variety of patterns at 25 yards.

After "getting back into shotguns," I find the old truisms absolutely factual = you have to pattern any specific load in whatever shotgun/choke you want to use to get any kind of a reality check on anything.

Of the (9 pellet) 00 buck, I got patterns of 2-3+ FEET! at 25 yards using IC & Mod ... not something I'd really write home about. I did not get what I wanted outa these ....

I switched to a Fed #4 buck 3" (41 pellets of #4 buck), mod choke
& got a pattern of ~1.5' = much nicer & about as close to a .22 cal machine gun as you can get. That'll work for only one shotgun .... stopped by The Store on the way home & picked up a 25 count box of 27 pellet #4 buck in 2-3/4 that'll shoot out of every 12 I own. We will see .....

Slugs are very effective, but at the same time, I'd like to find a goodly buck load to 25 yds.

Unless attempting to shoot through very heavy stuff, I do like #4 buck due to its more numerous pellets &, so far, seems to pattern better - outa mine.

There's no question that any 00 load, at 10-15 yards will do the trick = the pattern will be "tight enough" against a man-sized target. Thing is, at that range, so will most any other size shot charge as well.

.... still looking for that very special buckshot load for my 12s ....

Dave McC · January 21, 2002, 06:31 AM

Labgrade, when I first became an instructor, the FBI teaching my instructor class used 4 buck as a duty load. They may still.

I also tried 1 buck in the HD 870. Nice tight patterns. About 8-12" more spread at 25 yards in the deer 870, Skeet choke. Go figure...

Mannlicher · January 22, 2002, 09:59 PM

the problem continues to be, what kind of performace is good enough over a wide variety of situations, and ranges. While the #4 buck might look good at short range, at over 20 yards, the velocity and energy of the .24 balls drops off dramaticaly. They only weigh a small amount (with 20+ to the ounce.) At longer ranges, the larger shot retain energy much better, but may not pattern worth a hoot.

My thoughts are to keep the shotgun for barricade busting or close quarters drill, and for anything else, have a good AK or AR at hand.

labgrade · January 22, 2002, 10:20 PM

No argument from me, Mannlicher.

Nifty thing about a shotgun is you can have a pocketful of various shells & tailor your loading/s to what you come across.

Slugs, 00/#4 buck & on into the birdy stuff ....

For indoor, I'll stick with #4 buck (& a slug or so for "barrier work").

As a gee-whiz thing ... anybody have any ballistic coeficient data for various size shots through buck?

Oleg Volk · January 23, 2002, 01:03 PM

Benjamin,

Your 45-70 info is what I sought. A rifled "shotgun" with a tight pattern.

labgrade · January 23, 2002, 01:15 PM

Oleg, I think you'll be disappointed.

Most nothing "shotgun-like" does well coming out of a rifled barrel & I can't imagine a .45-70 throwing 2-3" 75 yd groups of any buckshot - or even .45 cal round balls - consistantly.

IIRC, that .38 cal multi-ball/projectile loading was as much novelty as anything, providing fairly open patterns at relatively close distances.

I try hard to stay away from a "what's the point?" type of attitude/questions (lots of nifty innovations have come from someone thinking outside the box), but I'm just curious what advantage would/could your proposal have over what's currently available?

Trying to understand the thought process ....

Oleg Volk · January 23, 2002, 01:19 PM

Just thought it would be interesting to see if the advantages (?) of a shotgun: a heavy load but not excessive penetration on structures) might be duplicated with a large-bore rifle. 45-70 with 4-5 round balls of .45cal size would be about as "accurate" as any rifle firing roundball...perhaps 6" at 50m...better than any buckshot round from a 12ga (though with half the number of pellets).

Dr.Rob · January 23, 2002, 09:16 PM

ahem..

Having a black powder shot gun allows experimentation with various "projectiles" (dimes, starwashers, buck shot, hand rolled "duplex" loads etc) and I'll tell you something I have learned.

It IS rocket science.

Starwashers fly away like frisbees, duplex loads leave a big hole surrounded by lillte holes right? Nope all the little holes are above the big hole. Dimes? leave a big round hole, just 1. (I used 18 dimes in a plastic wad and 90 gr of 2 fg (boom) sounded cool, expensive as hell. #9 shot in a plastic wad at 40 feet (when you seal the wad with scothchtape) will hit the patternboard like a glaser. ONE Prefect round slug-like hole with tiny pinholes from shot that leaked out. I haven't tried bits of crockery, rusty iron chains or marbles.. however due to the heightened velocity and aerodynamics expect a Tic/Tac vs Certs comparison soon. (with pics I hope)

maybe I AM crazy....

labgrade · January 23, 2002, 09:25 PM

Doc, just don't get yourself two cannons & try the "shoot the chain" trick - one end of the chain in each cannon.

Heard that was tried (probably only once!) to take out ships' riggings. Cannonball on each end of chain, two cannons which never quite go off at the same time ...

tightly wrapped, indeed!

Never yet played with BP shooters, but that would make a dandy test platform.

Zorro · January 24, 2002, 12:50 AM

Quote:

It IS rocket science

Weird Science?

Try a Marshmellow peep into a Chocolate Rabbit for easter.

Or a solid Wax slug.

Another Idea, one of those SUPER bounce balls.

Or a load up Bass Plastic worms in a shot cup.

Endless hours of experimentation!

January 19, 2002, 05:14 PM	#1
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Best buckshot round would be a small gauge magnum? Just thinking here...if small patterns are desirable, why not introduce a specialized buckshot chambering. Could start with .410 and magnumize it. A 5" .410 shell would hold plenty of .40-caliber round balls with a fairly uniform fit to the barrel. The spread from such a gun would be similar to the group size of a smoothbore musket -- negligible up to 50m or so. The recoil wouldn't be any worse than from a 12ga. Using plated shot or wads between pellets would prevent deformation. Precedent: 2-ball .357 round made by Remington, only longer to fit half-dozen shells. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

January 20, 2002, 04:18 PM	#6
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Hmm...I know tighter patterns will increase your range, but if you want long range a carbine is probably better suited. Is there any advantage to having a WIDER shot pattern? It decreases your effective range, but are there any advantages? __________________ Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus

January 22, 2002, 09:59 PM	#10
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	the problem continues to be, what kind of performace is good enough over a wide variety of situations, and ranges. While the #4 buck might look good at short range, at over 20 yards, the velocity and energy of the .24 balls drops off dramaticaly. They only weigh a small amount (with 20+ to the ounce.) At longer ranges, the larger shot retain energy much better, but may not pattern worth a hoot. My thoughts are to keep the shotgun for barricade busting or close quarters drill, and for anything else, have a good AK or AR at hand. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

January 23, 2002, 09:16 PM	#15
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	ahem.. Having a black powder shot gun allows experimentation with various "projectiles" (dimes, starwashers, buck shot, hand rolled "duplex" loads etc) and I'll tell you something I have learned. It IS rocket science. Starwashers fly away like frisbees, duplex loads leave a big hole surrounded by lillte holes right? Nope all the little holes are above the big hole. Dimes? leave a big round hole, just 1. (I used 18 dimes in a plastic wad and 90 gr of 2 fg (boom) sounded cool, expensive as hell. #9 shot in a plastic wad at 40 feet (when you seal the wad with scothchtape) will hit the patternboard like a glaser. ONE Prefect round slug-like hole with tiny pinholes from shot that leaked out. I haven't tried bits of crockery, rusty iron chains or marbles.. however due to the heightened velocity and aerodynamics expect a Tic/Tac vs Certs comparison soon. (with pics I hope) maybe I AM crazy.... __________________ You broke into the wrong Rec Room!

January 19, 2002, 05:38 PM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Oleg, why don't we go play in "Shotguns"? As far as tight patterns, I doubt that the diameter of the bore would affect pattern size out at 20-40 yards. That's more a function of choke. Art

January 19, 2002, 09:52 PM	#3
Zorro Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2000 Posts: 1,072	A slug would be better.

January 20, 2002, 01:32 AM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Art....choke not applicable here, he runnin bore sized balls out in trail. I would think they would scatter tho as the hindermost would be tryin to pass the aheader mor ones. Slug sounds good to me. Sam

January 20, 2002, 03:36 PM	#5
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A few decades ago someone made a 38 Special defense load that was basically 2 short full WC bullets stacked behind a short SWC. Each weighed about 50 grains, so it duplicated a 148 gr target load. Effect was erratic, some huge cavities, some not so huge. Right about then the big JHP craze took off, and the idea wasted away. 5" will not feed through many repeaters, Oleg. How about applying the above idea to a standard 410 shell,using the Minie Principle for obturation? Or use a shot cup, like Lyman does with its slug. We did a thread recently about the 410 for HD. These might be something there that will help you.

January 20, 2002, 07:48 PM	#7
Benjamin Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 1999 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 358	If I understand correctly, the idea in discussion is how to get a tight buckshot pattern out of a small bore shotshell. I can't help but think that a .45-70 case with several lead balls would accomplish this well. I have seen several loads of this sort in a somewhat old (80's) rifle re-loading manual. The author reported groups on the order of 2-3" @ 75 yards IIRC. I know that it does not fit the requirement of being a shotgun, but may be worth of consideration.

January 21, 2002, 03:28 AM	#8
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I dunno .... Just starting to "get back into shotguns" after a few years hiatus & patterned some 00 buck in a couple 12s a coupla days ago. Fairly amazing that you can get whatever you want by just going through the motions, picking various loads & shooting them through various shotguns. Tried 3X various flavors of "cheap" 00 buck through 2X shotguns & got a really tremendous variety of patterns at 25 yards. After "getting back into shotguns," I find the old truisms absolutely factual = you have to pattern any specific load in whatever shotgun/choke you want to use to get any kind of a reality check on anything. Of the (9 pellet) 00 buck, I got patterns of 2-3+ FEET! at 25 yards using IC & Mod ... not something I'd really write home about. I did not get what I wanted outa these .... I switched to a Fed #4 buck 3" (41 pellets of #4 buck), mod choke & got a pattern of ~1.5' = much nicer & about as close to a .22 cal machine gun as you can get. That'll work for only one shotgun .... stopped by The Store on the way home & picked up a 25 count box of 27 pellet #4 buck in 2-3/4 that'll shoot out of every 12 I own. We will see ..... Slugs are very effective, but at the same time, I'd like to find a goodly buck load to 25 yds. Unless attempting to shoot through very heavy stuff, I do like #4 buck due to its more numerous pellets &, so far, seems to pattern better - outa mine. There's no question that any 00 load, at 10-15 yards will do the trick = the pattern will be "tight enough" against a man-sized target. Thing is, at that range, so will most any other size shot charge as well. .... still looking for that very special buckshot load for my 12s ....

January 21, 2002, 06:31 AM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Labgrade, when I first became an instructor, the FBI teaching my instructor class used 4 buck as a duty load. They may still. I also tried 1 buck in the HD 870. Nice tight patterns. About 8-12" more spread at 25 yards in the deer 870, Skeet choke. Go figure...

January 22, 2002, 10:20 PM	#11
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	No argument from me, Mannlicher. Nifty thing about a shotgun is you can have a pocketful of various shells & tailor your loading/s to what you come across. Slugs, 00/#4 buck & on into the birdy stuff .... For indoor, I'll stick with #4 buck (& a slug or so for "barrier work"). As a gee-whiz thing ... anybody have any ballistic coeficient data for various size shots through buck?

January 23, 2002, 01:03 PM	#12
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Benjamin, Your 45-70 info is what I sought. A rifled "shotgun" with a tight pattern.

January 23, 2002, 01:15 PM	#13
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Oleg, I think you'll be disappointed. Most nothing "shotgun-like" does well coming out of a rifled barrel & I can't imagine a .45-70 throwing 2-3" 75 yd groups of any buckshot - or even .45 cal round balls - consistantly. IIRC, that .38 cal multi-ball/projectile loading was as much novelty as anything, providing fairly open patterns at relatively close distances. I try hard to stay away from a "what's the point?" type of attitude/questions (lots of nifty innovations have come from someone thinking outside the box), but I'm just curious what advantage would/could your proposal have over what's currently available? Trying to understand the thought process ....

January 23, 2002, 01:19 PM	#14
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Just thought it would be interesting to see if the advantages (?) of a shotgun: a heavy load but not excessive penetration on structures) might be duplicated with a large-bore rifle. 45-70 with 4-5 round balls of .45cal size would be about as "accurate" as any rifle firing roundball...perhaps 6" at 50m...better than any buckshot round from a 12ga (though with half the number of pellets).

January 23, 2002, 09:25 PM	#16
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Doc, just don't get yourself two cannons & try the "shoot the chain" trick - one end of the chain in each cannon. Heard that was tried (probably only once!) to take out ships' riggings. Cannonball on each end of chain, two cannons which never quite go off at the same time ... tightly wrapped, indeed! Never yet played with BP shooters, but that would make a dandy test platform.