Hang Fire

mo84 · March 27, 2012, 03:54 PM

I went out a couple weeks ago with a bunch of guns and was having a great time shooting. I made about 80 500 magnum bullets and noticed that two of them had a hang fire, one was not delayed much but the other one was about a full second. This is the first time I bhave had this happen and it is a weird thing to experience especially from such a heavy hitter. having it go off kind of unexpected kinda catches you off guard. I was wondering what might have caused this to happen. I do all steps on the press including priming so maybe something got into the primer? I don't know. Thanks

Ethan.G · March 27, 2012, 04:09 PM

iv only heard of this happening when someone touches the open side of the primer, oils from your fingers slow the burn. never heard of it happening on mag primers tho, thought they where too strong or something, guess not.

PA-Joe · March 27, 2012, 04:20 PM

What powder and what primer? Ball powders in cold weather do not like standard primers. Do you tumble your brass to clean them? Have you been checking your primer holes to make certain they are clean?

mo84 · March 27, 2012, 04:31 PM

I used H110, not sure which primers as the reloading stuff is at my dads house. I don't have a tumbler so I just cleaned them by hand as much as I could, wiping them off and blowing them out. it was pretty nice out the day we went. It was probably from handling the primers if that can be an issue, i didnt really take any precaution when handleing them.

m&p45acp10+1 · March 27, 2012, 05:33 PM

I can see a couple of different things since you were using H110.

First possibility is a light charge with an extreemly heavy crimp. It would take a bit for the pressure to build up inside of the case. (Think of a potato gun as example.)

Next would be that the bullets backed out a bit from the recoil, and increased the case capacity, making it take longer for enough of the slow powder to ignight enough to fire the round.

Those are my guesses. If you add fifty cents to that you can buy a can drink at some soda machines still.

Slamfire · March 27, 2012, 05:50 PM

I was had severe hangfires in my 35 Whelen with AA2520, a ball powder, in cold weather.

I changed the mainspring, changed the firing pin, ensured I had minimum headspace, and changed to stick powders.

Delayed ignition gives me the willies. You want a smooth, clean, pressure curve. Perturbations in burn have blown rocket motors all to heck, don’t see a reason why ammunition is immune.

I was having issues with WSP and AA#9 in cold weather with a 357 Magnum. AA#9 is a ball powder. I am firmly convinced it was due to a weak mainspring. I replaced the old mainspring and everything was fine.

My suggestion, replace your mainspring and ensure your primers are firmly seated. High primers are known for misfires, maybe they will also cause hangfires with ball powders.

243winxb · March 27, 2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Hang Fire

Plated Bullets? Jumping forward, out of the brass on recoil? Fire a cylinder full, all except for the last round. Check to see if bullet has moved?

warningshot · March 28, 2012, 03:53 AM

The only thing more danderous than a 500 Magnum hangfire is muliple 500 Magnum hangfires.

Who is going to explain to the wife & kids of the guy next to you that Daddy won't be going to work today because he is recovering in the hospital from shrapmentel wounds received at the range on Sunday, You?

mo84 · March 28, 2012, 07:33 AM

they were plated bullets so they could have moved even with the crimp because they dont have the line that goes around the bullet like on the jacketed bullets. I don't see how a hang fire is dangerous when the gun is always pointed down range.

243winxb · March 28, 2012, 08:46 AM

Plated bullets, with there soft pure lead cores, should be treaded as Lead bullets. Use liight to midrange loads. Neck tension is what keeps the bullet from moving. The soft plated bullet may be compressed by the brass or its just more slippery.

H110 needs a lot of neck tension & a very strong crimp. Maximum charges should not be reduced more than 3% See Hodgdon Website.

mo84 · March 28, 2012, 09:13 AM

Thanks for the advice, I was useing a mid range charge because they were plated. Maybe I will have to set the crimp a lil more and hope that works. I supose I will find out with the next 80 I make.

Axelwik · March 28, 2012, 09:47 AM

You should only use H110 with maximum or near maximum loads. And if you can't reliably crimp the bullet don't use H110. (Don't use bullets without a cannelure.)

mrawesome22 · March 28, 2012, 11:55 AM

H110 is a magnum powder meant for tough jacketed bullets at extreme velocties.

For consistent ignition, loads should not be reduced more than 3%, a very firm crimp should be used, and magnum primers should be used.

You don't even know what primers you used

Your hang fire meant the primer may have pushed the bullet out into the barrel before the powder had time to build pressure, then go off. Basically you had a bore obstruction. Very dangerous.

Good luck and God be with you.

mo84 · March 28, 2012, 01:11 PM

I used a charge that was outlined in the book so I assume it is fine to use as it was within the tollerance of what is considered a safe charge. No I do not know what primers I used because I do not memorize everything I do. That is what writing things down is for, and as I mentioned, could not referance to because it is all at my fathers. My crimps were consistant, just not heavy, which is something I will have to look into. If the bullet is being prematurly forced out into the barrel, I would assume the most that would happen is it would get stuck into the barrel as the pressure is being released through the cylinder gap and not being substantial enough to push it through the barrel which would cause a barrel obstruction, nothing more. The danger would be if I didn't catch the obstructed barrel before the next shot. I really can't see a hang fire it's self blowing a barrel. That's my understanding anyway, who knows I could be over looking something.

bfoosh006 · March 28, 2012, 04:38 PM

Seems to me that the current 500SW brass is being made for Large Rifle primers.... I'd look into that also..

warningshot · April 6, 2012, 03:35 AM

Cooking-up hand fires with a 500 Magnum....just like on Blazing Saddles..."Son, you're on your own."

Ozzieman · April 7, 2012, 09:11 AM

H110 is perfectly safe when using recommended minimum loads and you don’t have to use the upper end, although the upper ends have been for me the more accurate in my 44 Mag Contender.
But crimp is another thing completely. With mag powders you need to keep the bullet in the case as long as possible to get higher pressures.
A question, how did the cases look after they were fired? Was the outside of the cases very dirty? This is an indication that the pressure was not high enough to expand the case and seal the gasses from getting between the case and the chamber walls. This is more proof of what others suggested.

mo84 · April 8, 2012, 01:49 PM

the cases seemed to look the same as all the others

snuffy · April 9, 2012, 01:49 AM

Quote:

I've only heard of this happening when someone touches the open side of the primer, oils from your fingers slow the burn. never heard of it happening on mag primers tho, thought they where too strong or something, guess not.

MYTH! Old wives tale, myth. Primers are nearly impossible to De-activate with oil of any kind. Many tests with primers soaked in various oils, water, solvent, then dried off, they still fired.

Plated bullets are difficult to get a good grip on. The plating is no-where-near as thick as a good jacketed bullet. Then the absence of a cannelure,("the line that goes around the bullet like on the jacketed bullets"), prevents a good crimp.

mo84 · April 15, 2012, 12:40 AM

went out today with 40 more, loaded with max powder, clean cases inside and out before priming ( large rifle primers) ,loading powder and extra heavy crimp. Correct over all length. I had one hang fire which was the 3rd bullet loaded singlely, so Im thinking its either the powder or the primers. all the cases look the same. Just an update.

mrawesome22 · April 15, 2012, 09:31 PM

Technically you are right. It is the powder. H110 needs to have a lot of pressure build inside the case to perform as. intended.

Your combo cannot provide this because you are using soft, slippery bullets with no cannulure or lube ring to crimp on.

It boggles me why someone would buy a $1500 revolver and try to use the cheapest components they can find.

Get a Smith RHKP in 38S&WSpecial if you want to plink on the cheap.

A 500mag shooting a plated bullet with no gas check and a full house H110 load, brings to mind a flying, molten, orb, blob flying at super sonic speeds

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

Slamfire · April 17, 2012, 09:23 AM

Weak ignition was a cause of hangfires and misfires (and cold) in my S&W 586. I was using AA#9, the weather was cold, and the mainspring was old.

Replaced the mainspring, and everything worked fine in slightly warmer weather.

Is your mainspring tension screw backing out?

Maybe your primers are too deep or not properly seated?

March 27, 2012, 03:54 PM	#1
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	Hang Fire I went out a couple weeks ago with a bunch of guns and was having a great time shooting. I made about 80 500 magnum bullets and noticed that two of them had a hang fire, one was not delayed much but the other one was about a full second. This is the first time I bhave had this happen and it is a weird thing to experience especially from such a heavy hitter. having it go off kind of unexpected kinda catches you off guard. I was wondering what might have caused this to happen. I do all steps on the press including priming so maybe something got into the primer? I don't know. Thanks

March 27, 2012, 05:33 PM	#5
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I can see a couple of different things since you were using H110. First possibility is a light charge with an extreemly heavy crimp. It would take a bit for the pressure to build up inside of the case. (Think of a potato gun as example.) Next would be that the bullets backed out a bit from the recoil, and increased the case capacity, making it take longer for enough of the slow powder to ignight enough to fire the round. Those are my guesses. If you add fifty cents to that you can buy a can drink at some soda machines still. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

March 27, 2012, 05:50 PM	#6
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I was had severe hangfires in my 35 Whelen with AA2520, a ball powder, in cold weather. I changed the mainspring, changed the firing pin, ensured I had minimum headspace, and changed to stick powders. Delayed ignition gives me the willies. You want a smooth, clean, pressure curve. Perturbations in burn have blown rocket motors all to heck, don’t see a reason why ammunition is immune. I was having issues with WSP and AA#9 in cold weather with a 357 Magnum. AA#9 is a ball powder. I am firmly convinced it was due to a weak mainspring. I replaced the old mainspring and everything was fine. My suggestion, replace your mainspring and ensure your primers are firmly seated. High primers are known for misfires, maybe they will also cause hangfires with ball powders. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

March 28, 2012, 03:53 AM	#8
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	Any hangfire with a 500 Magnum is serious. The only thing more danderous than a 500 Magnum hangfire is muliple 500 Magnum hangfires. Who is going to explain to the wife & kids of the guy next to you that Daddy won't be going to work today because he is recovering in the hospital from shrapmentel wounds received at the range on Sunday, You?

March 28, 2012, 08:46 AM	#10
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Plated bullets, with there soft pure lead cores, should be treaded as Lead bullets. Use liight to midrange loads. Neck tension is what keeps the bullet from moving. The soft plated bullet may be compressed by the brass or its just more slippery. H110 needs a lot of neck tension & a very strong crimp. Maximum charges should not be reduced more than 3% See Hodgdon Website. Last edited by 243winxb; March 28, 2012 at 08:57 AM.

March 27, 2012, 04:09 PM	#2
Ethan.G Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2012 Posts: 127	iv only heard of this happening when someone touches the open side of the primer, oils from your fingers slow the burn. never heard of it happening on mag primers tho, thought they where too strong or something, guess not.

March 27, 2012, 04:20 PM	#3
PA-Joe Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: NEPA Posts: 909	What powder and what primer? Ball powders in cold weather do not like standard primers. Do you tumble your brass to clean them? Have you been checking your primer holes to make certain they are clean?

March 27, 2012, 04:31 PM	#4
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	I used H110, not sure which primers as the reloading stuff is at my dads house. I don't have a tumbler so I just cleaned them by hand as much as I could, wiping them off and blowing them out. it was pretty nice out the day we went. It was probably from handling the primers if that can be an issue, i didnt really take any precaution when handleing them.

March 28, 2012, 07:33 AM	#9
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	they were plated bullets so they could have moved even with the crimp because they dont have the line that goes around the bullet like on the jacketed bullets. I don't see how a hang fire is dangerous when the gun is always pointed down range. Last edited by mo84; March 28, 2012 at 07:39 AM.

March 28, 2012, 09:13 AM	#11
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	Thanks for the advice, I was useing a mid range charge because they were plated. Maybe I will have to set the crimp a lil more and hope that works. I supose I will find out with the next 80 I make.

March 28, 2012, 09:47 AM	#12
Axelwik Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2012 Location: Land of Enchantment Posts: 436	You should only use H110 with maximum or near maximum loads. And if you can't reliably crimp the bullet don't use H110. (Don't use bullets without a cannelure.)

March 28, 2012, 11:55 AM	#13
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	H110 is a magnum powder meant for tough jacketed bullets at extreme velocties. For consistent ignition, loads should not be reduced more than 3%, a very firm crimp should be used, and magnum primers should be used. You don't even know what primers you used Your hang fire meant the primer may have pushed the bullet out into the barrel before the powder had time to build pressure, then go off. Basically you had a bore obstruction. Very dangerous. Good luck and God be with you.

March 28, 2012, 01:11 PM	#14
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	I used a charge that was outlined in the book so I assume it is fine to use as it was within the tollerance of what is considered a safe charge. No I do not know what primers I used because I do not memorize everything I do. That is what writing things down is for, and as I mentioned, could not referance to because it is all at my fathers. My crimps were consistant, just not heavy, which is something I will have to look into. If the bullet is being prematurly forced out into the barrel, I would assume the most that would happen is it would get stuck into the barrel as the pressure is being released through the cylinder gap and not being substantial enough to push it through the barrel which would cause a barrel obstruction, nothing more. The danger would be if I didn't catch the obstructed barrel before the next shot. I really can't see a hang fire it's self blowing a barrel. That's my understanding anyway, who knows I could be over looking something.

March 28, 2012, 04:38 PM	#15
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	Seems to me that the current 500SW brass is being made for Large Rifle primers.... I'd look into that also..

April 6, 2012, 03:35 AM	#16
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	Yea, I'd agree with your concearn. Cooking-up hand fires with a 500 Magnum....just like on Blazing Saddles..."Son, you're on your own."

April 7, 2012, 09:11 AM	#17
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	H110 is perfectly safe when using recommended minimum loads and you don’t have to use the upper end, although the upper ends have been for me the more accurate in my 44 Mag Contender. But crimp is another thing completely. With mag powders you need to keep the bullet in the case as long as possible to get higher pressures. A question, how did the cases look after they were fired? Was the outside of the cases very dirty? This is an indication that the pressure was not high enough to expand the case and seal the gasses from getting between the case and the chamber walls. This is more proof of what others suggested.

April 8, 2012, 01:49 PM	#18
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	the cases seemed to look the same as all the others

April 15, 2012, 12:40 AM	#20
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	went out today with 40 more, loaded with max powder, clean cases inside and out before priming ( large rifle primers) ,loading powder and extra heavy crimp. Correct over all length. I had one hang fire which was the 3rd bullet loaded singlely, so Im thinking its either the powder or the primers. all the cases look the same. Just an update.

April 15, 2012, 09:31 PM	#21
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Technically you are right. It is the powder. H110 needs to have a lot of pressure build inside the case to perform as. intended. Your combo cannot provide this because you are using soft, slippery bullets with no cannulure or lube ring to crimp on. It boggles me why someone would buy a $1500 revolver and try to use the cheapest components they can find. Get a Smith RHKP in 38S&WSpecial if you want to plink on the cheap. A 500mag shooting a plated bullet with no gas check and a full house H110 load, brings to mind a flying, molten, orb, blob flying at super sonic speeds Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2 Last edited by mrawesome22; April 15, 2012 at 09:40 PM.

April 17, 2012, 09:23 AM	#22
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Weak ignition was a cause of hangfires and misfires (and cold) in my S&W 586. I was using AA#9, the weather was cold, and the mainspring was old. Replaced the mainspring, and everything worked fine in slightly warmer weather. Is your mainspring tension screw backing out? Maybe your primers are too deep or not properly seated? __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.