Hand loading question

[m&p45acp10+1]

As far as lead exposure when casting. The more hazardous part is smelting wheel weights. Not for lead rather for carbon monoxide from the residue on the weights burning off. (Note if you melt those inside where ever you do this will smell like burnt tires for a good while. Like a week or more.)

[700cdl]

Thanks for the response guys. A 30% savings over jacketed is rather significant. But I would doubt I'll ever change my long history of loading jacketed bullets. Even though lead offers a little more savings, I still feel I'm making out economically well. And the quality of a hand loaded jacked bullet is superior to anything factory has to offer, which brings me back to why I started hand loading in the first place. I do argue that lead is far superior to jacketed regarding performance on paper, or for self defense. I'll elaborate as follows:
First of all is personal experience. Though I haven't ever hand loaded lead, I have shot it on a number of ocasions. Some was purchased from vendors at gun shows, and some from friends that load with it. I've found that most lead ammo is loaded with light charges of fast buring powders. Because these powders are worked with in very small increments, one or two tenths of a grain effect performance noticably. Not the case with an average slow buring powder, unless working with it at the minimum listed data.
Also, if lead was all that superior in its performance, I would think that at least some LE or military entities would be using it. I'm not saying that it is an absolute inferior bullet, but it doesn't deliver the penetration capabilities of a quality jacketed bullet. An example I experienced was with some 44 magnum a friend loaded that he said was a super high velocity load. We shot at a 1/4" piece of plate steel at 100 yds. and his lead just put a light dent in the steel. I shot it with my Speer Jacketed HPs and they blew right through. And trying to hit the piece of 12"x12" steel plate was more tha just a little difficult with the lead.
Now back to my original post. I was simply asking for the basic economics of loading already manufactured lead bullets, and wasn't wanting to turn this into a comparrision of which is better. I guess if a guy just wants to load primarily for economics, then lead is the way to go from what information you've all provided me, but I'll remain convinced of jacketed performance as superior.

[bigredhemi]

I changed over to 9mm, 124gr, hard cast for 5-10 yard practice.

500 for $28 at the gun shows and no difference in accuracy and feeding was perfect in my M&P9c.

I was REALLY surprised how little fouling there is - I was expecting to have to chisel it out!

[overkill0084]

...but I'll remain convinced of jacketed performance as superior.
Cost aside, superiority depends on the application. If jacketed bullets were inherently superior in all instances, there would be no use for cast at all.

[Nevmavrick]

700cdl:
How does 19.0gr WW296 w/CCI 350 for 1230fps...13.5gr Blue Dot w/300s for1270fps...20.5gr H110 w/350s for 1330fps...16.5gr Enforcer w/ 300s at 1320fps...or 19.4gr 2400 with Magtech #2 1/2s for 1370 fps sound with 200gr lead (not pure!) from a 6" M57 S&W .41 Mag sound??? These have all been chronographed from MY gun, and I don't think there is a problem from lack of penetration.
I'm not trying to get in a p---contest, I'm just pointing out that there are other reasons to be using 'other than I can buy' bullets. I cast, therefore, the bullets in my inventory are made from WWs(wheelweights) Magnum (about 4% antimony) or Linotype (about 84% lead)
When it comes to basic economics, I can only point out that when my brother and I go to a "steel" match of IDPA, we're carrying a bag-load of .40 with 170gr Lee TC bullets, or .45 with RN Lyman bullets. These could be bought off the shelf(the bullets) then loaded, or cast as I do.
The question was why do pistol-shooters usually use lead? Versatility! There are so many things you can do with lead. Why handicap your shooting by only using jacketed???
Have fun,
Gene

[Unclenick]

On top of that, some of the premium cast bullet designs like the LBT designs sold by Beartooth bullets and some others and those used by Randy Garrett in some of his ammunition seem to kill and penetrate with very little weight loss, but have no exact jacketed counterparts. Don't know why. There's no technical obstacle that I'm aware of.

As to accuracy, jacketed bullets still have an edge. The last time I looked (awhile ago) I think the 200 yard 10 shot benchrest record for cast bullets was just under half an inch, and the 10 shot group record for jacketed bullets was just about exactly half that. Of course these were all hand-selected cast bullets being seated into the throat with a special tool and then driven by a charged case put in afterward, vs. expensive custom benchrest bullets in a heavier rifle and loaded by benchrest methods. So it's not quite an apples-to-oranges comparison, but it's close if you look at it as each shooter doing what his bullets like best.

For target loads with cast pistol bullets loaded and fired in the same gun, when my Goldcup was freshly fit up it would hold 5-shot groups of about an inch at 25 yards off the bags, but jacketed bullets did under half that. So that kind of fits the rifle trend. 2:1 in best groups.

In benchrest, assuming equally carefully selected bullets, I think the advantage comes mainly from jackets being able to withstand being driven faster without losing shape and from having nose forms with higher supersonic BC's. As a result, they have shorter transit times to the target, giving small atmospheric irregularities less opportunity to act on them. In the handgun, I've demonstrated to my own satisfaction that the difference mainly has to do with the jackets better withstanding alignment correction in the barrel upon firing. The cast bullet is more prone to swaging in slightly cocked.

[Doodlebugger45]

For me, it's PRIMARILY a cost issue. I like to shoot my revolvers a lot and I go through a lot of bullets for my .357, .44 mags, and .45 Colts. I don't cast my own. My cost for a decent cast bullet is about 1/3 of the cost for a decent jacketed bullet in those calibers. The bullet is the most expensive part of those loads, so it lets me shoot 2 to 3 times as many rounds if I use commercial cast bullets.

For plinking and target practice, I typically shoot 250 gr cast bullets at about 825 fps in the .45 Colt, my .357 cast bullets shoot at about 1100 fps or so, and my 240 gr cast bullets in the .44 mags run around 1000-1100 fps also. I don't get any leading at all with those loads in my revolvers and accuracy is pretty good. If necessary, any of those bullets could be used for SD or hunting. However, I do have some hot loads developed for the .357 and .44 that use jacketed bullets running a lot faster. I just don't shoot them as much due to the cost.

However, when shooting my .480 Ruger, it's a different ball game. I have a big supply of .325 JHP for that and they shoot very well at 1300-1350 fps or so. But I get better accuracy from the Beartooth Bullets in 325 or 355 gr cast with a gas check. I truly believe (but haven't shot big game with it yet) that the hard cast bullet will perform better shooting a buffalo or bear or elk than would an expanding bullet. In this case, the premium Beartooth cast bullets are just as expensive as the JHP bullets. So, it is my percceived or expected performance that is the issue. Oddly enough though, I also have a .454 Casull that so far I have not attempted to shoot cast bullets in. It is similar in performance to the .480, but I just haven't felt the urge to play with cast in it yet.

But like I said, in terms of quantity of shooting, I think shooting cast bulets lets me shoot at least twice as much as shooting jacketed bullets.

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, Zipp13..You hit it right on the head! When I was shooting jacketed, it seemed all I was doing, once I found a good bullet, was reach in a box & press a bullet in the case mouth...BORING! Now I cast for just about everything..from .22 Hornet to .577Snider!

[reloader28]

700cdl
I'm not going to try and talk you into casting, but as you said above, those were "bought" cast bullets. In my opinion, homecast is the only way to go. I cast for everything from 223 to 500S&W

As was already posted by others...

When casting you control the alloy for hardness. With the hardness you get the speed control and more importantly, the pressure control to load either full tilt max loads with hard bullets or light plinkers with soft bullets.

You control the size of the bullet. This is the barrel leading biggest factor. If the size aint right, your going to leave lead in the barrel. With size you get the excellent accuracy that us homecasters get, which I'll argue is every bit as good and if done right is more accurate than the condom counterparts.

You control the shape. This dont need an explanation, but if you want a nastalgic style of bullet, make a round flat nose. If you want longer range accuracy, make a semi point or round nose. If you want a hunting bullet, make a big flat nose. If you want a self defense bullet, make a big flat nose and maybe put a hollow point on it. A cast bullet with a big meplat causes MASSIVE tissue trauma.

This is a small taste of what you can do. You can really have fun putting together different combinations of hardness and shape.

In rifles, I actually get as much and more penatration with my 1900-2000fps cast bullets as I do with the 3000fps j-bullets. Yes, I test everything with water and sand traps. I personally think the only advantage the j-bullets have over cast bullets is they have a jacket that lets you shoot them at higher pressures. You are limited with speed and distance in some high velocity rifle bullets only with cast. All pistols and slower rifle loads are ideal for cast bullets because of the pressure ranges. Cast bullets work up to 40,000-45,000psi.The copper jacket alloys you to crank up the pressure, load hotter and get more distance with your gun.

I think that most casters will agree when I say that j-bullets wernt inventd to be better. They were invented to be easier. If you cant sneak, its easier to shoot j-bullets with accuracy at 300+yds. If you dont like to clean lead from your gun, some think its easier to clean copper fouling out. Not me. It is easier to make a good load with jacketed. Any idiot out there can make a j-bullet shoot good with a very minor amount work.

I shoot 100% cast pistol bullets and 95% cast rifle bullets. My 30-30's will never see another j-bullet. Cast loads are more accurate than with ANY jacketed load and perform every bit as good if not better. My 243's shoot 3/4" groups at 100yds with 100gr cast loads. I killed my first cast bullet deer last year with Grandpas 1903 Springfield shooting a 180gr FN cast bullet. And ALL of my guns have lead free barrels. Even my 223WSSM. Its seems like a waste loading cast bullets in a 223WSSM, but I make the bullets already and aint costing me anything more than a primer and a couple pennies of powder to try.

I will say that for the most part, I do have to work harder to get good results than I do with j-bullets. When you do your homework and experiment, you can get very satisfied results.

Homecast bullets are NOT for everyone and you obviously have no use for them. But for someone that likes to experiment and gets great joy from making you own stuff, I could not give a higher recomendation than casting your own. There is NO better feeling on earth then shooting the bullseye with homecast bullets, eating homemade jerky, drinking homebrew on furniture you made in a house you built. Whats the saying? "Boys. It just dont get any better than this".

I'm not trying to convince you to use cast bullets. If you dont want to its none of my or anyone elses business, but PLEASE dont say they're inferior to jacketed bullets. Some of us might take offense to that. They are actually very far from it.

[amamnn]

Where you get the lead introduced into your body makes a huge difference in the effect.


While I usually agree with Nick on most posts--he's way off on this one if he wants to get people to believe that lead inhalation is safe................Using Nick's illogic, all the folks who lost their minds from lead inhalation or ingesting lead and its other alloy ingredients are all living today and merrily having us all on---------------all those kids drooling in the dark from eating lead paint are just figments of Ralph Nader's imagination. If you want read about the very real effects of lead on the human body as experienced through a lifetime of shooting and breathing the fumes--read Richard Lee.

Inhaling or ingesting lead is a lot different from having a lump in a bone or muscle for a relatively short time. If you look at the records, and they were very detailed and precise for those Civil War veterans who survived field dressings to be treated in hospitals--very few were left with lumps of lead inside them--most were amputees.

Lead is dangerous if taken internally--anyone who says different is at best misinformed.

I do not use lead bullets on an indoor range--no one at my range does that I know of--it may be possible--it may be that they have all died off--if not by lead poisoning--then by other stupidity.

One advantage of lead over copper jackets is that lead conforms to the rifling more readily. Whether or not this is any advantage in handgun plinking or even competition is debatable. A safe alternative is plated lead like Berry or Rainier bullets, which are not as hard as jacketed ammo and do not put lead in the air when fired. If you absolutely MUST shoot lead, then you can use gas checks which keep the base of the bullet from being vaporized by the hot gasses of ignition.


There will be a quiz to follow this lecture and next week we will explore the dangers to health of copper vapors in handgun smoke with the Brady Bunch and presented by Mikey Bloomberg...............

[brickeyee]

Lead is dangerous if taken internally--anyone who says different is at best misinformed.

It depends entirely on its form and how it got there.

Lead compounds can be very dangerous.
Some are easily absorbed into the body.
The lead styphanate in primers makes a real withes brew of compounds, some of which can be easily absorbed if you breath them in.

Lead acetate (AKA 'sugar of lead') was the common additive in lead paint.
It was used as a gloss improver and hardener (drying agent).
It is VERY easily absorbed if ingested.
Lead oxide as a pigment went away long before lead acetate.

Lead dust can be a hazard since it is finely divided and has a large surface area.
\If the body absorbs just a tiny amount in rendering the surface passive, it can easily add up.

Larger pieces of metallic lead are harmless.
The small surface area means they are quickly isolated and there is very little actual absorption.
If you sallow a larger piece it makes its way through the gut and is excreted.
If it is embedded i the body (like being shot) it is quickly isolated.
Bullets are only removed if the surgeon comes across them easily, otherwise they are routinely left.