380 auto and 9mm luger(9x19)

[nhyrum]

am i the only one who thought a 380 acp was just a shortened(apparently by only 2 millimeters) 9mm luger because of the whole 9mm kurz/9mm short thing?

come to find out, when i started reloading for 9x19, the does do not "fit" 380, 380 uses a different diameter bullet(only .001 different) and even a different shell holder!

surely, 380 IS NOT 9mm(9mm luger) short.

[jwrowland77]

A .380 bullet and a 9mm are EXACTLY the same diameter. Both use .355 jacketed, .356 plated.

In my case I use .356 for my .380 and .357 for my 9mm when I cast my own.


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[lee n. field]

surely, 380 IS NOT 9mm(9mm luger) short.

Nope.

Bullet diameter is the same, but the bullet weights don't (practically) overlap, and the .380 case is not simply a short 9x19 case.

[jwrowland77]

Originally Posted by lee n. field

Nope.



Bullet diameter is the same, but the bullet weights don't (practically) overlap, and the .380 case is not simply a short 9x19 case.

My .380 loves 124gr TC cast boolits. Lol. Actually it's the most accurate in that pistol.


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[rg1]

Same diameter bullets. .380 uses bullet weights from 88 grain to 100 grains while 9MM does best with 115-147 grain bullets.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Is the 380 acp in power comparable to 7.62 Nagant Revolver ammo?

A while ago I had an discussion if the 38 spl case is only an shortend 357 mag case. Seems the 357 mag is just an elongated 38 spl case with the same structural strength (same brass tickness).

What about the 380 acp case vs 9mm Luger case.

I reload for 38 spl Nagant style reloads. As well I reload for 9mm Luger. Both with cast bullets only.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

You see sometimes reloading implies some imperfections.

Specially with reloading cast bullets some cast just do not enter a very vell belled case mouth. Considered I do not size them. I use all lead cast bullets as cast as Lee intented it.

If they have to be squeezed a Little in while seating that I consider normal. My crimping is allways almost just undoing the case mouth bell from the Expander die. Just crimp light. I allways use taper crimp ONLY (for Revolvers as well).
The resized case will hold firmly the seated bullet even wenn no crimp is applied. For propper powder burn adjust bullet weight-crimp Combo. I just go for a heavier bullet or seat 'em deeper if I observe improper powder burn (yellowish peaces inside the case).

[TailGator]

Your conclusions are quite correct, and "9 mm short" is, regardless of language, just a name of the cartridge, not intended to be a full description.

Please don't take this wrong, because I write it only out of concern for safety rather than to be unkind in any way, but it worries me a bit that you started reloading the cartridge in what seems like a sort of trial-and-error way, rather than looking carefully at the cartridge description and dimensions that accompany the load data in the reloading manuals with which I am familiar. Maybe I am just reading it wrong, or feeling curmudgeonly, but I didn't get an impression of a good foundation from your OP.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Which is the real difference between 380 acp (9mm Kurz) and 9mm Luger?

Case difference.

[ammo.crafter]

TaleGator is absolutely correct. Take it as well meaning critizism and nothimng more.

You know the old wood shop talk the teacher used to give about measuring twice and cutting once?

Sometimes we forget that reloading involves som e potentially dangerous components.

Read and research and double check. It's a good habit.

[nhyrum]

Originally Posted by TailGator

Your conclusions are quite correct, and "9 mm short" is, regardless of language, just a name of the cartridge, not intended to be a full description.

Please don't take this wrong, because I write it only out of concern for safety rather than to be unkind in any way, but it worries me a bit that you started reloading the cartridge in what seems like a sort of trial-and-error way, rather than looking carefully at the cartridge description and dimensions that accompany the load data in the reloading manuals with which I am familiar. Maybe I am just reading it wrong, or feeling curmudgeonly, but I didn't get an impression of a good foundation from your OP.

I feel that I take criticism pretty well.

The whole reason I came upon this is a 380 case got mixed into my 9 cases and noticed that it didn't run through the die the same, nor did it fit in the shellholder the same. I honestly don't ever plan on reloading 380, and if I do, id get the correct tools.

Anyway, sorry if that wasn't the point of your post. If it wasn't, please clarify. I want to be a grown man and take the point you were trying to make

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[jwrowland77]

If you ever do start reloading .380 auto and NEED cases badly, you can cutdown .223 cases and make your own .380 cases.

I like to do it to jack with folks at the range that picks up brass. Lol


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[firewrench044]

9MM Luger
SAAMI spec. lead bullet- .359 to -.0030= .356
SAAMI spec. jacketed bullet .358 to -.0030= .355
(generally .355)
case is tapered, 19MM long

380 Auto or
9MM Kurt
SAAMI spec. (jacketed only) bullet- .3565 to -.0030 = .3535
( generally .356 )
case is straight walled ( .0008 taper ) 18MM long

( European Specs. are a complete different story including pressures)
( NATO uses European specs. and can be considered +P ammo )

Both head space off the case mouth

Many manufactures use .355 or .356 for both, and both sizes will
work in 9MM and 380 Auto
And will also work in a 38 SPL. and .357 as well as other calibers
( Some guns are picky so you need to feed them the
correct Dia. and weight bullet to function correctly )

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I do not have an 380 acp.
But I reload 9mm Luger.

I do not see why you couldn't load lead bullets in an 380 acp.

As well some sources will tell you NEVER EVER load lead bullets in an 9mm Luger pistol. That is complet crap as I have proven otherwise.

If it ain't gas operated just feed 'em lead bullets. Do not worry about leading. I never got an leaded Barrel.
As I did not reload nor cast I believed the crap as well that lead bullets are bad for the gun. Actually they save you a ton of Money. But you get a Little less Penetration but you get for free very big Expansion if you use lead bullets (no Need for an costly fancy hollow Point).

if you load lead bullets in the 380 acp your already "anemic" caliber will further reduce it's Penetration. So you have to put more powder in order to squeeze out the utmost velocity for the caliber. You better buy a strong gun. As the 9mm Luger the 380 acp is an technically efficient caliber (not so the 38 spl or 357 mag).

What I do with my 38 spl reloads to get 9mm Luger Efficiency (shot in an 357 mag Revolver) is this: Seat 'em as an Nagant Revolver cartridge to reduce redundant empty airspace to encrease pressure and velocity like here

[TailGator]

Anyway, sorry if that wasn't the point of your post. If it wasn't, please clarify. I want to be a grown man and take the point you were trying to make

I had the impression from your post that you were trying to reload both calibers. I apologize that I misread your intent.

In your situation the case difference served as a safety mechanism that kept you from using an inappropriate piece of brass. Been there myself. I reload both, and sort them by height, but it is kind of nice that the shell holders are incompatible for the occasional one that slips by the sorting process.

As I said, I was only concerned for safety, and certainly did not mean to criticize or offend. My apology for my part of the misunderstanding.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

TailGator,

Since the 380 case is 18mm and the 9mm is 19mm long there must be an possibility to load the 380 acp almost as hot as the 9mm Luger if you consider case Volumen.
Maybe SMG like the Scorpion have an strong chamber and action so the 380 could be loaded to about 1300 fps with an 115 grain FMJ bullet. That would equal to an 9x19 performance.
Why not if the gun is strong enough? The 380 acp could go very well up to 35000 psi prerssures an 9x19 velocities.

[rodfac]

What I do with my 38 spl reloads to get 9mm Luger Efficiency (shot in an 357 mag Revolver) is this: Seat 'em as an Nagant Revolver cartridge to reduce redundant empty airspace to encrease pressure and velocity like here

Just what kind of pressure are you getting from this practice...without access to a full lab setup, I view this as a very questionable procedure. Rod

[mdemetz]

If you ever do start reloading .380 auto and NEED cases badly, you can cutdown .223 cases and make your own .380 cases.

Lee uses the same shell holder for 223 and 380 which is different than the one for 9mm .

[jwrowland77]

Originally Posted by mdemetz

Lee uses the same shell holder for 223 and 380 which is different than the one for 9mm .

Correct


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[PACraftsman]

Too bad the 9 mm Bergman didn't become more popular, that would have been one heck of a 9 mm round...

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Which is then the REAL difference between the 380 acp, 9mm Luger, 9 mm Israeli, 9mm Bergman-Bayard?

Only the length of case as it seems to me (and SAAMI specs are different) since:
9x18 is 380 acp
9x19 is 9mm Luger
9x21 is 9mm Israeli
9x23 is 9mm Bergman-Bayard or 9mm Danish.

The real difference:
The first enters less powder as in the latter (due to difference in case Volumen). SAAMI specs are different.

That is the ONLY difference as far I can see.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Since I can not get here in Southamerica gun powder commercially I have to use the least of gun powder possible to achieve to most of velocity.

That is why I have to look allways for the most efficient caliber.

Very eeficient would be the 380 loaded to 9mm Luger levels but surpassing SAAMI specs.
The next efficient would be the 9mm Luger as it has almost no empty airspace in the case if leaded hot and that seems to be the most efficient caliber.

If you have a spare powder you may could get to 357 mag or 44 mag energy levels with the 9x21 or 9x23 calibers. Probably again surpassing SAAMI specs. But technically that may be achievable.

The case thickness and construction may be similar to all of the caliber in the "9mm" range (only difference is the case length as is in similar manner with the 357 mag and 38 spl).

[Jim Watson]

The .380 (9mm Short) is not very similar to the other 9mm cartridges. It is different in every dimension except bullet diameter whereas the others in that series are closely related except for length.
There is some history of it being overloaded in strong guns but it is not something I will do.

[zeke]

380 is loaded to lower pressures, and looking at specs the brass is thinner.
Load for both 380 acp and 9mm, and use specific dies for each.

[noylj]

>am i the only one who thought a 380 acp was just a shortened(apparently by only 2 millimeters) 9mm luger because of the whole 9mm kurz/9mm short thing?

You're not the only one, but most of us actually LOOK at the case drawings in every manual and can see that they are NOT the same.

For 9mm pistols, there are:

9x19 (9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, and, I am sure, a bunch of other names)

.380 Auto (also called the .380 ACP, 9mm Browning, 9mm Corto, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short, 9×17mm, 9x17 Browning, 9mm Browning Kurz, and 9 mm Browning Court)

.38 Super (now named the .38 Super +P by SAAMI)

.38 Auto (both the Auto and Super have been referred to as 9x23 in the past)

9x23 Win

9x25 Dillon

9mm Ultra

9mm Makarov

9x18 Police

9x20 Browning (9mm Browning Long)

9mm Bergmann Bayard

9mm Steyer

9mm Win Mag

There are probably others out there.