1911 extractors

Doc Hoy · October 13, 2013, 06:51 AM

Went to the gun show in VA Beach yesterday and came home with some steel case .45 ACP.

After it was too late to change up, I recalled a caution from someone who seemed to know what he was talking about.

The caution was that steel case ammunition is hard on extractors.

I have an RIA 1911 GI Model and a Ballester Molina Post Colt Contract 1911 Clone.

Is it safe to shoot this ammunition is these pistols? (By "safe" I mean is there a significantly increased risk of a broken extractor when using the steel ammo?)

Sarge · October 13, 2013, 07:27 AM

Shoot it up, Doc. Ive been through cases of the stuff and never had a problem. In fact the ONLY 1911 extractor I've ever had break, was a 1945 Ithaca in 1992. Suspect it had seen a lot of shooting before I got it

Doc Hoy · October 13, 2013, 07:29 AM

Thanks

UncleEd · October 13, 2013, 07:33 AM

Extractors, extra springs, firing pins are fairly cheap. Check out the various sites such as Wilson, Colt, RIA? and order up a few extras.

Then nothing will happen to the original stuff already in the gun.

Doc Hoy · October 13, 2013, 07:37 AM

This is one which was manuf. by the company not in association with the contract. SN is 19XXX. (I think that is 1943)

The grips including the location of the screw holes for the grips do not match the original 1911. How about interchangeability of internal parts?

psyfly · October 13, 2013, 07:45 AM

I suspect myth, as well, even though it runs counter to my only experience with broken 1911s: Combat Commander, broken extractor, steel-cased ammo. Pistol was used when I got it, so, unknown history. I didn't stop shooting stteel cases.

W

Doc Hoy · October 13, 2013, 08:13 AM

I'm shooting these bullets.

Hawg · October 13, 2013, 08:24 AM

Doc, the Ballester Molina is a copy of the Spanish Star, not the 1911. Methinks you're thinking of the Colt Sistema.

Doc Hoy · October 13, 2013, 08:47 AM

Yes,

I know this is not a direct clone.

psyfly · October 13, 2013, 09:41 AM

Doc, if not mistaken, I believe only about four Ballister Molina parts will interchange with 1911: Slide, barrel, recoil spring and guide rod. Maybe.

If you do break an extractor, it might be difficult to find another.

Best,

W

JERRYS. · October 13, 2013, 09:50 AM

order up a spare extractor or two from RIA along with an 18 pound recoil spring, maybe some other odds and ends... those are standard do it yourself replacement parts for any 1911. oh, have fun shooting the steel case ammo, not a problem in my experience.

3.Shot.Group. · October 13, 2013, 09:58 AM

I shot some steel case through my 1911, it did reduce the tension on the extractor some, but it's an easy fix.

The one thing the steel case does to my 1911 that needs any real work is to the ejector, the steel is harder than brass and will round off the ejector, causing some casings to hang up when the slide goes forward. It's easy to square it back up with a file, be sure to follow the original angle. Case hardening the face of the ejector would be a good idea to.

I read somewhere, can't remember where, that the rim on steel case ammo is out of spec. with brass, it didn't say if it was a particular brand or not. Then again I've heard the same thing about some brass casings, but can't confirm it.

As far as I can tell, you have to do a bit more maintenance with steel case ammo, but nothing has ever broken on my 1911 because of it.

**44 AMP** · October 13, 2013, 10:27 AM

First off, let me be clear, I don't care for steel cased ammo. IN anything.

Lots of people shoot a lot of it (because its cheaper) and have no problems. I don't. For a few reasons, the main one being I am a dedicated reloader.

If you load your 1911 from the magazine, (the way you ought to) the case rim slides up under the extractor as the slide chambers the round. This puts no undue strain on the extractor, shooting steel or brass.

Putting a round in the chamber and letting the slide close on it puts a different strain of the extractor, and may lead to problems with either kind of case. I would think that since even the mild steel used in cases is "harder" than brass that the odds are if something is going to break, steel will make it break sooner than brass cases.

But there is no clear evidence that this is the case. Each gun seems to be a law unto itself on how well it eats steel ammo, and how long it will live on a diet of the same.

I will give you this tidbit of information, for your consideration...
The US made steel case .45 ammo, during WWII. ONLY in 1943.

If steel case ammo was so good, why did they drop it?

JERRYS. · October 13, 2013, 11:14 AM

Quote:

If steel case ammo was so good, why did they drop it?

its not so good. it was tried because it was cheaper, just like the steel penny way back yon.

today its for the same reason, cheaper to shoot than brass.

I prefer brass because American guns were designed around that type of round.

3.Shot.Group. · October 13, 2013, 11:16 AM

I don't care much for the steel either.

It's rusts
It's heavier
It causes parts to wear more
And the casings are harder to find/police up, because of the coating.

Wreck-n-Crew · October 13, 2013, 11:35 AM

Quote:

I don't care much for the steel either.

It's rusts
It's heavier
It causes parts to wear more
And the casings are harder to find/police up, because of the coating.

Brass is heavier than steel.
copper 8930kg/cu.m
steel 7850kg/cu.m
brass 8400 - 8700kg/cu.m

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_brass_heavier_than_steelAnd the

Quote:

casings are harder to find/police up, because of the coating.

By sight mybe but not by metal detector.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 13, 2013, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Hoy

How about parts for the Ballester Molina?

This is one which was manuf. by the company not in association with the contract. SN is 19XXX. (I think that is 1943)

The grips including the location of the screw holes for the grips do not match the original 1911. How about interchangeability of internal parts?

Doc, the Ballester-Molina (and Ballester-Rigaud) are not only not direct clones of the 1911, they are not clones of the 1911 at all, in any way, shape, or form. I'm not even certain that the slides interchange, but they might. There is no interchange on internal fire control parts.

3.Shot.Group. · October 13, 2013, 03:22 PM

Some brass is heavier than steel, but it doesn't rust, and brass doesn't have a protective coating on it. I'll have to put a brass casing and a steel casing on my scales and check the weights to be sure.

O.K. just weighed the brass casings and steel casings.

Haaaa! They actually weight the same, 0.19 to 0.20 ounces.

I don't want to carry a metal detector everywhere I go, the gun is enough.

KyJim · October 13, 2013, 06:54 PM

Not ignoring the extractor question, but you should also be aware of potential other problems. Below is from one of my previous posts in this forum:

Quote:

I have seen some reports in 1911s about Herter's ammo (and possibly other cheap, steel cased ammo) causing primer flow back up because the firing pins did not seal tightly in the steel case. The most extensive discussion I've seen is over at http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=325790. Look specifically on page 3, post 58. Greyson is in pretty tight with Ed Brown and talked to them about this issue. The primer flow problem may cause pitting in the breach face and long term problems with the operation of the gun. You can find some other, less substantiated posts about primer flow issues with some steel cased ammo in 1911s.

I do not know if the primer flow issue is specific to 1911s. I have shot some steel cased ammo in non-1911s and never noticed a problem.

Sarge · October 13, 2013, 09:04 PM

Primer flow should not be occurring at 45 ACP pressures and if it is occurring, I'd suspect a poor firing pin fit to the slide- not the primer. I don't even begin to get the 'breechface pitting' thing in a properly maintained 1911; but I can tell you I never noticed it in any of mine through several thousand rounds of Wolf or Tula ball. I did scrub some residue from the primer sealant off mine, but at the price of the ammo I wasn't hollering about it.

Doc, Ballester Molina extractors surface every now and then if you'd like a spare.

Doc Hoy · October 14, 2013, 05:00 AM

I'll PM ya.

Thanks

October 13, 2013, 06:51 AM	#1
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	1911 extractors Went to the gun show in VA Beach yesterday and came home with some steel case .45 ACP. After it was too late to change up, I recalled a caution from someone who seemed to know what he was talking about. The caution was that steel case ammunition is hard on extractors. I have an RIA 1911 GI Model and a Ballester Molina Post Colt Contract 1911 Clone. Is it safe to shoot this ammunition is these pistols? (By "safe" I mean is there a significantly increased risk of a broken extractor when using the steel ammo?) __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

October 13, 2013, 07:27 AM	#2
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Shoot it up, Doc. Ive been through cases of the stuff and never had a problem. In fact the ONLY 1911 extractor I've ever had break, was a 1945 Ithaca in 1992. Suspect it had seen a lot of shooting before I got it __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

October 13, 2013, 07:29 AM	#3
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Thanks Sarge Thanks __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

October 13, 2013, 07:37 AM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	How about parts for the Ballester Molina? This is one which was manuf. by the company not in association with the contract. SN is 19XXX. (I think that is 1943) The grips including the location of the screw holes for the grips do not match the original 1911. How about interchangeability of internal parts? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

October 13, 2013, 07:45 AM	#6
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	I suspect myth, as well, even though it runs counter to my only experience with broken 1911s: Combat Commander, broken extractor, steel-cased ammo. Pistol was used when I got it, so, unknown history. I didn't stop shooting stteel cases. W __________________ Show me the data

October 13, 2013, 07:33 AM	#4
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	Extractors, extra springs, firing pins are fairly cheap. Check out the various sites such as Wilson, Colt, RIA? and order up a few extras. Then nothing will happen to the original stuff already in the gun.

October 13, 2013, 08:13 AM	#7
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	That settles it.... I'm shooting these bullets. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

October 13, 2013, 08:24 AM	#8
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Doc, the Ballester Molina is a copy of the Spanish Star, not the 1911. Methinks you're thinking of the Colt Sistema.

October 13, 2013, 08:47 AM	#9
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Hawg... Yes, I know this is not a direct clone. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

October 13, 2013, 09:41 AM	#10
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Doc, if not mistaken, I believe only about four Ballister Molina parts will interchange with 1911: Slide, barrel, recoil spring and guide rod. Maybe. If you do break an extractor, it might be difficult to find another. Best, W __________________ Show me the data Last edited by psyfly; October 13, 2013 at 10:26 AM.

October 13, 2013, 09:50 AM	#11
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	order up a spare extractor or two from RIA along with an 18 pound recoil spring, maybe some other odds and ends... those are standard do it yourself replacement parts for any 1911. oh, have fun shooting the steel case ammo, not a problem in my experience.

October 13, 2013, 09:58 AM	#12
3.Shot.Group. Junior member Join Date: June 24, 2013 Posts: 208	I shot some steel case through my 1911, it did reduce the tension on the extractor some, but it's an easy fix. The one thing the steel case does to my 1911 that needs any real work is to the ejector, the steel is harder than brass and will round off the ejector, causing some casings to hang up when the slide goes forward. It's easy to square it back up with a file, be sure to follow the original angle. Case hardening the face of the ejector would be a good idea to. I read somewhere, can't remember where, that the rim on steel case ammo is out of spec. with brass, it didn't say if it was a particular brand or not. Then again I've heard the same thing about some brass casings, but can't confirm it. As far as I can tell, you have to do a bit more maintenance with steel case ammo, but nothing has ever broken on my 1911 because of it.

October 13, 2013, 10:27 AM	#13
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,856	First off, let me be clear, I don't care for steel cased ammo. IN anything. Lots of people shoot a lot of it (because its cheaper) and have no problems. I don't. For a few reasons, the main one being I am a dedicated reloader. If you load your 1911 from the magazine, (the way you ought to) the case rim slides up under the extractor as the slide chambers the round. This puts no undue strain on the extractor, shooting steel or brass. Putting a round in the chamber and letting the slide close on it puts a different strain of the extractor, and may lead to problems with either kind of case. I would think that since even the mild steel used in cases is "harder" than brass that the odds are if something is going to break, steel will make it break sooner than brass cases. But there is no clear evidence that this is the case. Each gun seems to be a law unto itself on how well it eats steel ammo, and how long it will live on a diet of the same. I will give you this tidbit of information, for your consideration... The US made steel case .45 ammo, during WWII. ONLY in 1943. If steel case ammo was so good, why did they drop it? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 13, 2013, 11:16 AM	#15
3.Shot.Group. Junior member Join Date: June 24, 2013 Posts: 208	I don't care much for the steel either. It's rusts It's heavier It causes parts to wear more And the casings are harder to find/police up, because of the coating.

October 13, 2013, 03:22 PM	#18
3.Shot.Group. Junior member Join Date: June 24, 2013 Posts: 208	Some brass is heavier than steel, but it doesn't rust, and brass doesn't have a protective coating on it. I'll have to put a brass casing and a steel casing on my scales and check the weights to be sure. O.K. just weighed the brass casings and steel casings. Haaaa! They actually weight the same, 0.19 to 0.20 ounces. I don't want to carry a metal detector everywhere I go, the gun is enough. Last edited by 3.Shot.Group.; October 13, 2013 at 03:28 PM.

October 13, 2013, 09:04 PM	#20
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Primer flow should not be occurring at 45 ACP pressures and if it is occurring, I'd suspect a poor firing pin fit to the slide- not the primer. I don't even begin to get the 'breechface pitting' thing in a properly maintained 1911; but I can tell you I never noticed it in any of mine through several thousand rounds of Wolf or Tula ball. I did scrub some residue from the primer sealant off mine, but at the price of the ammo I wasn't hollering about it. Doc, Ballester Molina extractors surface every now and then if you'd like a spare. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

October 14, 2013, 05:00 AM	#21
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Sarge, I'll PM ya. Thanks __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.